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  • So changing ways?

    So I hear that paradox changed changing ways, and that there was a manuscript of the earlier version. What all did paradox change in it? Or is this an unfounded rumor?


    WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

  • #2
    My understanding is that they asked to add transphobic content to the book that the writer did not himself add. I've seen the writer's side of things, but not Onyx Path's. Or WW/Paradox for that matter.

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    • #3
      The original manuscript was never released to the public.

      However, it's also not an unfounded rumor as one of the authors and the developer have both confirmed that WW/Paradox demanded edits of the material.

      The author was the only one to point out specific changes publicly.

      AFAIK Onyx Path has never officially said anything about it, and WW/Paradox only gave a boilerplate response that they exercised their rights as IP owners under the license to request alterations to the text.

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      • #4
        I’d be curious to see what the original was but I reckon that’ll be one of those things you’ll see on eBay in 20 years.


        WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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        • #5
          What would be the transphobic content that is now in the book?
          I didn't read it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post
            I’d be curious to see what the original was but I reckon that’ll be one of those things you’ll see on eBay in 20 years.
            I'm not sure how we're ever going to see it.

            The drafts belong to the WoD IP owners. They're not valuable enough to possible make any money off of that's worth the risk of getting sued. Paradox has no reason to allow it to get out since it'd just make them look bad.

            If the IP changes hands a time or two, it's likely work documents like that are going to be lost in the digital ether.

            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
            What would be the transphobic content that is now in the book?
            The central issue (though there are many) is that the book assigns a vary modern very specific real-world cultural position to the Garou that doesn't make any sense for them to hold: Garou shouldn't transition because Gaia doesn't make mistakes.

            This is, of course, a very fundamentalist Abrahamic stance because divine infallibility is central to many hard-line conservative Abrahamic religious groups. The Garou don't have any sort of belief that everything Gaia does is perfect (she created the Trait... that didn't go so well, and she created the Fera and the Garou waged multiple genocidal war with their fellow shifters... so Gaia's not exactly coming out doing things perfectly here). There isn't some grand ineffable plan Gaia has created that everyone is following.

            There's also a very tiresome repetition of equating being trans with gender affirming surgery or HRT; the text makes it sound like a Garou is incapable of being trans without physical changes, and that such changes are impossible due to Garou physiology (in direct contradiction to established lore and other sections of the same book). It's esp. jarring because as best you can piece together from what Holden has said about his draft, they basically took what was supposed to be, "the Garou are distrustful of using Weaver tools to transition, but they have found spiritual methods to affirm gender identity that are better if you can convince the spirits to do it," and changed it to, "trying to transition as a Garou is horrible icky badness. Oh but some spirits can snap their fingers and do it for you if you do a quest for them."

            Keep in mind that this material has always been in the published version of the book.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms
              (she created the Trait... that didn't go so well,
              Gaia made the Triat? Is there any source for this?


              Jade Kingdom Warrior

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              • #8
                It’s a common Garou belief, however its disputed by other Changing Breeds such as the Ananasi and Bastet who claim that it was the other way around, the Triat creating Gaia.

                In my mind, it’s a matter of perspective. Ultimately the forces of the universe embodied by the Triat are what allowed Gaia to form and within Gaia the forces of the Triat play out to ensure the continuation of life. If you’re only interested in Earth and it’s life then focusing upon Gaia as the ultimate spiritual being makes a certain amount of sense, although in the broader sense, it may not be entirely accurate.

                Ultimately though as with much of cosmology, paradigm and perspective will play a large role in your understanding of things.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Storyteller's Handbook revised page 137
                  Which Is Bigger, Gaia or the Triat?
                  The answer to this question has been left deliberately vague. Some Storytellers prefer to interpret the cosmology such that the Triat is universal, whereas Gaia is limited to the immediate vicinity of Earth (both physical and spiritual). Others prefer the idea that Gaia is the Universe, and that the Triat are her wayward children — albeit children with the power to slay their mother, should it come to that.
                  The Changing Breeds themselves don’t know the answer to this question, although they have their own ideas, and often blatantly disagree. Therefore, don’t worry aboutany “book-legal” right or wrong answer to the question — your answer is the one that matters.
                  I vaguely remember some Garou Legends stating the Triat was created by Gaia. But I think it is left open to interpretation in any case...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                    I vaguely remember some Garou Legends stating the Triat was created by Gaia. But I think it is left open to interpretation in any case...
                    Yes Garou tend to view Gaia as supreme above the Triat, while Bastet are noted for more often viewing Gaia as the Incarna of Earth and the Triat as cosmic in comparison.


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                    • #11
                      Anyway, Changing Ways is the only OPP published book where I have seen writers explicitly disown their sections because of changes made.


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                      • #12
                        I believe there's also a section which describes a caern where every female Garou is required to bear at least one metis. Consider the implications of this, in lack of consent/rape, horrific injury, and death in childbirth. Yeah, and the metis are used as shock troops, kinda like how BSDs do it. And other Garou are aware of this Litany-spurning sept, but not even the Black Furies have attacked it. I doubt that Holden wrote that section.
                        Last edited by Erinys; 12-06-2020, 05:57 PM.


                        She/Her. I am very literal-minded and write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                        My point of view may be different from yours but is equally valid.
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                        • #13
                          The ret-con of Avatar storm and the Malady is also an added content.

                          As we can now see, the Malady is a WW 5e stuff. Why almost cut the Umbra of from the gameplay is a concept I can't understand.

                          Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                          I vaguely remember some Garou Legends stating the Triat was created by Gaia. But I think it is left open to interpretation in any case...
                          I like the Hengeyokai idea the most (If I remember & interpret it right): Gaia created the Triat, but with it she lost her power and started to die. As a last act she died-birthed herself anew.
                          So Gaia II is not the Gaia I the creator, but a creation and not superior to Triat as Gaia I was.
                          Last edited by Lachdanan; 12-07-2020, 04:32 AM.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                            I believe there's also a section which describes a caern where every female Garou is required to bear at least one metis. Consider the implications of this, in lack of consent/rape, horrific injury, and death in childbirth. Yeah, and the metis are used as shock troops, kinda like how BSDs do it. And other Garou are aware of this Litany-spurning sept, but not even the Black Furies have attacked it. I doubt that Holden wrote that section.
                            Oh no, it gets MUCH worse. It isn't JUST one sept, it is -multiple- septs doing this and treating their metis solely as animals/shock troops. This after the start of the metis section goes to VERY detailed lengths to showcase how dangerous birthing just ONE metis is.

                            Add in an NPC popping up randomly to explain tribes and just the general non-functionality of this plan... it is a mess. As in, even BSDs don't solely rely on metis-breeding to bolster their numbers. This in addition to the REALLY nasty implications in the lupus section.


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                            • #15
                              As the parts of the book is written from the perspective of the storytelling werewolves, let's just assume they were infected by Wyrm or mind-wiped by Nephandi...


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