About garou sex and metis before the first change

[Rucun]

If a garou gets pregnant by another garou before the first change , will the children be metis?

Considering that before the first change garous are basically only seen as kinfolk. What happens if a older garou has sex with a teen garou thinking it's a kinfolk?


Will the child be metis? Or this only happens after the first change?

What if both garoushave not changed yet and have sex as teens, in case there is pregnancy, will the child be a metis?

[Konradleijon]

Yeah Garou are basically kinfolk before the first change.

[Heavy Arms]

In W20?

I believe the inconsistent but most favored by the text answer is that yes, it would be a Metis; though if the mother hasn't First Changed yet, this would certainly cause that to happen (or kill her).

Since W20 wants it harder to tell the difference between kin and pre-change Garou, it would make sense that Garou society is more understanding of this particular violation of the Litany (if it is convincingly accidental; the older Garou example might not be given a pass for not waiting a bit longer/mating with an older kin that's past average First Change years) regarding Renown loss (though pre-Change Cubs don't actually have an mechanical penalty for Renown loss anyway) or Punishment Rites.

Edit:

No, Garou aren't kinfolk before the First Change. There's a huge difference between, "can't tell the difference," between to things, and them being the same.

[Dwight]

By the wording of the gift Scent of the True Form, unchanged garou register as kinfolk so your mileage may vary.

[baakyocalder]

Heavy Arms Do you have a citation for where the difference between Kinfolk and Garou is clearly delineated? I know the Gift Scent of the True Form identifies something as Garou, Kinfolk or another kind of supernatural or human. Trying to figure some of this out for my Mage game, which has morphed into one mage and two werewolves game (lost players and the one player playing a Mage badly went to playing a Werewolf but hasn't played tabletop Werewolf in at least 20 years).

Also, the sex being discussed here is all breeding sex, which is not the only kind. Garou should not mate with Garou--is that just a breeding thing or does it cover all possible permutations to a pack, sept or tribe in your game? This definitely bears consideration, since violating the Litany is a bad thing. . .

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Heavy Arms Do you have a citation for where the difference between Kinfolk and Garou is clearly delineated? I know the Gift Scent of the True Form identifies something as Garou, Kinfolk or another kind of supernatural or human. Trying to figure some of this out for my Mage game, which has morphed into one mage and two werewolves game (lost players and the one player playing a Mage badly went to playing a Werewolf but hasn't played tabletop Werewolf in at least 20 years).

Also, the sex being discussed here is all breeding sex, which is not the only kind. Garou should not mate with Garou--is that just a breeding thing or does it cover all possible permutations to a pack, sept or tribe in your game? This definitely bears consideration, since violating the Litany is a bad thing. . .

There's a Silver Fang signature character who is the result of such a pairing (Sings for the Beast, appearing in both Rage Across Russia and Rage: Warriors of the Apocalypse). As for casual sex versus intentionally trying to conceive, Guardians of the Caerns noted that casual couplings between Garou defy typical probability when it comes to conception likelihood, in that it's more likely to happen even if attempts toward contraception are taken.

[Rucun]

So, if two pre-change garou teens have sex, the off spring (if any) will definetly be a metis, right?


Now, what of the female garou is not of age to change yet, can the pregnancy kill her? or she will change sooner?

[Black Fox]

The child will be metis. Unchanged Garou may be indistinguishable from kinfolk before their first change, but they are still Garou.

However, the initial form of the child need not be crinos. There are various examples in first edition of a newly delivered metis baby spontaneously changing into either homid or lupus form which lasted until their first change (this was likely done at the time in order to preserve the Veil in the setting when this happened, and the writers could not think of other alternatives). Using that as a precedent, I think the ST could make various rulings for the metis' form during the gestation and birth if one option or another seemed more "realistic" to her.

[Heavy Arms]

By the wording of the gift Scent of the True Form, unchanged garou register as kinfolk so your mileage may vary.

Specifically, pre-Change Garou "smell like" kin. If pre-Change Garou were kin, that wouldn't be a necessary statement.

Do you have a citation for where the difference between Kinfolk and Garou is clearly delineated?

I could probably come up with a ton of them, but the text is abundantly clear that you're either born a Garou or a Kinfolk, regardless of the difficulty of determining this (keeping in mind that Scent of the True Form used to go the other way and let you pick out pre-Change Garou from kin).

The Baptism of Fire also specifically says it's only used on pre-Change Garou; which either means it fails if you try it on Kinfolk or the Garou have ready access to methods (even if harder to get than a level 1 Gift) to figure this out to know who to use it on and who not to. Though they also didn't change the wording of Baptism of Fire from Revised when SotTF could pick this up readily (on top of things like GW's having talens that can reveal such as well).

The books have, for multiple editions, treated pre-Change and Kinfolk as mechanically different categories even if W20 decided to make the issue muddier in-character.

Also, the sex being discussed here is all breeding sex, which is not the only kind. Garou should not mate with Garou--is that just a breeding thing or does it cover all possible permutations to a pack, sept or tribe in your game? This definitely bears consideration, since violating the Litany is a bad thing. . .

The question is if a Metis is produced, so the focus on reproductive sex is standard.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

The child will be metis. Unchanged Garou may be indistinguishable from kinfolk before their first change, but they are still Garou.

However, the initial form of the child need not be crinos. There are various examples in first edition of a newly delivered metis baby spontaneously changing into either homid or lupus form which lasted until their first change (this was likely done at the time in order to preserve the Veil in the setting when this happened, and the writers could not think of other alternatives). Using that as a precedent, I think the ST could make various rulings for the metis' form during the gestation and birth if one option or another seemed more "realistic" to her.

That's typically associated with purchase of the merit Metamorph for said character.

[Heavy Arms]

So, if two pre-change garou teens have sex, the off spring (if any) will definetly be a metis, right?

Yep.

Now, what of the female garou is not of age to change yet, can the pregnancy kill her? or she will change sooner?

There is no set age for the change, but generally speaking the default range is early sexual maturity. If a pre-Change Garou is old enough to get pregnant, she's old enough to Change.

If somehow she doesn't change as the pregnancy advances, it will kill her.

[heinrich]

The FAQ Section in Storyteller's Handbook revised clearly states that garou are garou from birth.

This means, pre-change garou will be parents to metis, regardles if only one or none of the garou have had a first change yet.

With W20 this has not changed to my knowledge. Sure, the gift to tell the difference was altered, but no clear mechanics are given. However, late-bloomers are also more common in the fluff and there is less focus on Lunatics. So, W20 clearly follows the idea that kinfolk could have first changes rather late in their life, meaning that ever garou who has a relationship with a kinfolk has a 1:10 chance the partner is actually a garou and the first child is a metis. That is, unless the partner already has another child with a garou that isn't a metis.
Hell, with the lack of "Scent of the true form" we know have a means to detect if a person is kinfolk or garou. Just let them have a child with a garou and find out.... W20 is a bit of a mess...

[baakyocalder]

Thank you, fellow posters. I'd looked at Werewolf earlier in its cycle, but I primarily run Mage. I missed most of Revised for the whole WoD and never saw Werewolf Revised.

Just sounds like all the 20th Anniversary editions, there is material in there which may simplify matters but leaves more ambiguity. Since my Mage game is now Mage/Werewolf (better since one of the players enjoys Werewolf from prior play and completely fumbled with his Mage character), I'm trying to get my details more right. The player has ancient knowledge, I have mostly the modern books (except for specific books for lore) and mages know little about werewolves (even the mage who is a mage kinfolk).

[Penelope]

Heavy Arms Do you have a citation for where the difference between Kinfolk and Garou is clearly delineated? I know the Gift Scent of the True Form identifies something as Garou, Kinfolk or another kind of supernatural or human. Trying to figure some of this out for my Mage game, which has morphed into one mage and two werewolves game (lost players and the one player playing a Mage badly went to playing a Werewolf but hasn't played tabletop Werewolf in at least 20 years).

Also, the sex being discussed here is all breeding sex, which is not the only kind. Garou should not mate with Garou--is that just a breeding thing or does it cover all possible permutations to a pack, sept or tribe in your game? This definitely bears consideration, since violating the Litany is a bad thing. . .

I think baakyocalder means some form of sex other than intercourse (sorry if I’m not supposed to say that, but it could come up in game).

[baakyocalder]

Penelope Yes. However, the OP was primarily concerned if couplings of 'possibly' Garou might produce Metis. So, I'd say if we're exploring other Garou sexual views, that's better in another thread.