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Garou vs Forgetful Mind

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  • Garou vs Forgetful Mind

    The PC's just grabbed a vampire ghoul whose mind has been wiped via Forgetful Mind of all useful information. They want to crack the ghoul open, and are going to take him to the Sept elders. What kind of stuff could the elders do to counter that Dominate power?

  • #2
    I can't recall any Gifts that would obviously undo the effects of Dominate, or specifically recall forgotten memories. Nor do I think it should be easy to counteract these kind of things that vampires do. They should remain frightful antagonists especially in ways outside of physical combat. But here are some things I think might be possible as ST:

    Galliards have gifts involving dream manipulation. They very rarely get used from my experience. But perhaps the Garou could enter the ghoul's dreams through their Chimare, and undergo an Inception-like story trying to pick up useful bits from the ghoul's subconscious. I wouldn't give them anything direct or specific, but perhaps enigmatic scenes where they'd use their dream interpretation rolls to pick up bits of information that might be useful. Or you could describe certain dream scenes in a way that does provide them with usable information, but they have to pick up on it by asking questions or remembering details you included. One neat thing is that within the Chimare, you may have the effects of Dominate "manifest" as an opponent trying to thwart the Garou dream intruders from uncovering what it's suppressed.

    Certain spirits might be able to help. They probably aren't the standard Gaian spirits, but maybe there's a Memory Epiphling (or some other spirit) that could reveal such things. The PCs would need to undertake an umbral quest to find such a rare spirit, and perform appropriate chiminage to obtain its help. You might need to create an Epiph domain somewhere at an appropriate spot where the Garou could enter to find this specific kind of spirit.

    If you want to go an easier route, maybe there is a rare talen or awakened plant (like gingko) that when ingested by the ghoul, could restore some memories. The Garou wouldn't have direct access to those memories, but they now have some memories restored they could interrogate. If you want to build a story around it, you could make it a rare plant. Or the plant has to be collected under the right circumstances to be effective in this case (a certain time of year, moon cycle, found in the wilderness, etc.). Or they need to travel to another sept to get the "recipe" to make a talen to do so. And then they'd need to perform certain chiminage to get the spirit's aid.

    I think no matter how it's done, it should be shown to be hard, and only limited information is obtained. That way it's not something that effectively neuters an iconic vampire power that could be done by all Garou every time. There should be pitfalls to any solution. (Of course, now someone will just post a well known Gift that makes this easy and undercuts my argument!)

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    • #3
      RAW nothing comes to mind.
      But besides that, there might be a possibility to restore the memories with the help of a spirit that the elders could summon and bargain with.
      They also could use the blood of the ghoul as component in a vision quest or something, so information he had would be revealed...

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      • #4
        There isn't much in terms of a direct counter (welcome to the cWoD, where crossover is a pain). That said, there are a lot of things that an ST could allow to counter in the vast lists of Gifts, Rites, and so on.

        Reality's Path (a Revised Rank 4 Philodox Gift) is one of the more direct options. Unlike lower powered lie detector powers, it doesn't just say if the target is being truthful or lying, but rather it actually reveals if a statement is true or false objectively (so the target can say "this is what happened" fully believing that to be the case because of altered memories, and the Gift detects it to be false anyway) and with enough successes can actually learn what happened. Though it works best when seeking specific answers, as the Gift notes it doesn't work as a method of fishing for information.

        If the ST isn't happy with using some of the more edge case Gifts, there's a Ragabash Gift that specifically lets them create new Gifts after having other supernaturals use powers on them, so a Ragabash could have always made a Garou Gift that copies Forgetful Mind if the ST wants that to exist in the game.

        The Garou also have a large number of divination oriented powers, allowing them to seek out information via dreams or omens by simply looking into the past directly rather than having to worry about what's in the ghoul's head.

        And, of course, as Forgetful Mind doesn't truly "destroy" memories and just hides them (since they can be recovered) those memories actually exist in the Umbra. While Elders are unlikely to do this themselves, finding the ghoul's memories can be accomplished by finding the right memory-spirits and asking them to reveal what's been lost.

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        • #5
          Thank you, everyone, for your responses. Much appreciated, and makes me feel better for coming up blank when considering this problem to begin with.

          Black Fox, I love your idea of an Inception-styled descent into a chimare, complete with Forgetful Mind foes who seek to block the PC's. Going to run with that, and should prove a very fun session. Much appreciated!

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