Red Talon / Glass Walker Tribal weakness

[heinrich]

The 'Harvesting Gnosis from Spirits' thing got me thinking, how do you see the "can't regain gnosis in wilderness/urban environment" thing.

Is it limited to regaining gnosis through meditation, or do all effects that would replenish Gnosis simply not grant Gnosis as result of the tribal weakness?

Meaning, harvest from spirits/banes, Rite of Spirit Brew, Gifts, sacret hunt rites, spirit pacts, engling killing would all have no effect in the wrong circumstances...

[Asmodai]

Looking at how it's done with Silent Striders in Rage Accross Egypt, I think it's just about meditation not working. Other methods seem to work fine.

[Erinys]

Well, "other methods" in Egypt require eating somebody's brain during a Wyrm-Rite. To me that suggests that other, safer and saner methods (such as the Sacred Hunt) don't work for Silent Striders in Khem.

[heinrich]

I was more thinking along the lines of balancing. Children of Gaia have a weaker Delirium/Veil, Silver Fangs permanent Derangements.
Prohibiting the Red Talons/Glass Walkers just one means of Gnosis regaining, would be kind lame in comparison, right?

[Asmodai]

Well, "other methods" in Egypt require eating somebody's brain during a Wyrm-Rite. To me that suggests that other, safer and saner methods (such as the Sacred Hunt) don't work for Silent Striders in Khem.

Aren't we jumping to extremes... Page 119 explicitly calls out Meditation and Sacred Hunt as not working and spirit gifted gnosis evaporating. However, it has nothing against Rite of the Sacred Gift. By default Rites and Gifts seem to be working (which was the sensible option that stuck in my mind).

Now looking that the Curse of Egypt is deeper and worse than any tribal weakness (does anyone actually use these in game?), my reasoning was that the effects would surley be simpler than the ones of the highly specific curse of Egypt. Meditation seems to be the one that's directly problematic here, as the communion with Gaia and the spirit world is what Talons/Walkers would have issues with. Bargaining with spirits, hunting them and using gifts and rites should be fine.

[Black Fox]

I think the intent behind those Weaknesses are to permanently hobble members of those tribes in these other environments. So when they say "can't regain Gnosis", it means they can't regain Gnosis at all. Not that only one specific way to regain Gnosis can't be used. Whatever a Red Talon had coming into the city (or Glass Walker entering the wilderness) is all they have to use. Meditation doesn't work. Slaying an Engling doesn't work. Consuming some sort of Talen hat restores Gnosis doesn't work, etc. If they want to regain Gnosis, they have to leave that environment and do whatever they do to regain Gnosis there. Then they can go back.

The description of the Tribal Weakness says they lack "affinity" for that other area because of either the Wyld or Weaver, so you could attribute it to some sort of general "miasma" that afflicts them. However, I think the logic of any tribal weakness is that it's in effect a "ban" by their tribal totem on them. The weakness affects them just because that's the price of being a child of that spirit.

Now those weaknesses do have an exception - you can always regain Gnosis at a caern even one located in that area. So the Sacred Hunt, being part of a caern moot, will provide Gnosis. So the Red Talon Spotlight is perfectly fine at the Central Park Caern despite being in New York City. He just never leaves the bawn or limits the amount of time he spends outside of it. But a Red Talen visiting some random city that doesn't have a caern at all, or not one accessible to him (say a Glass Walker caern, and they simply won't let a Red Talon inside), then it'll be a big issue.

Having said this, I've never liked the Tribal Weaknesses and have never used them in my chronicles. Though I would allow an individual PC (or NPC) to have one as part of the Cursed Flaw.

[heinrich]

Having said this, I've never liked the Tribal Weaknesses and have never used them in my chronicles. Though I would allow an individual PC (or NPC) to have one as part of the Cursed Flaw.

I usually don't use them in tabletop games I ST for either, but they were mandatory in my LARP group when I joined as a player and are still mandatory now that I'm part of the ST team.
I think, when I started the Werewolf LARP consisted mostly of Vampire LARPers and they liked the Clan weaknesses. Today, a lot of our Werewolf players never played Vampire.

[Lian]

I've always thought some tribal weaknesses were better incorporated than others. The SIlver Fangs are CURSED by Luna for their arrogance... the Red Talons can't meditate in cities?

[heinrich]

Yeah, well, the Silver Fangs Tribal Weakness got a in world explanation with the revised tribe book. Some other weaknesses also have in world explanations that may or may not make sense. Apparently the Children of Gaia didn't cull enough humans 10.000 plus years ago, so today humans can remember them better and are less shocked when they see their Crinos form, as compared to other Crinoses. Because magic, I guess, for it really doesn't make to much sense for a psychological defence mechanism...

[Asmodai]

Having said this, I've never liked the Tribal Weaknesses and have never used them in my chronicles. Though I would allow an individual PC (or NPC) to have one as part of the Cursed Flaw.

I think your take on the weakness is pretty solid, and makes sense in context, even if it it harsher then what I'd interpret it, then again I feel that the hunt and the bargaining with spirits are protracted and complicated things that one should not undertake lightly. I am quite happy to hear that I'm not alone in not playing with the weaknesss. Interestingly the tribe weaknesses always seemed like a much more natural social and historical flaw for the tribes and one that could be used for great narrative purposes, but as direct "problems" for characters they never really gelled.
Always found it quite odd that the Werewolf flaws seem to inform the tribal histories and culture more than the flaws do for most Vampires.

The idea of allowing them as a special flaw is nice if someone wants to play it up is something I like a lot more then enforcing them for all characters.

[Erinys]

Aren't we jumping to extremes... Page 119 explicitly calls out Meditation and Sacred Hunt as not working and spirit gifted gnosis evaporating. However, it has nothing against Rite of the Sacred Gift. By default Rites and Gifts seem to be working (which was the sensible option that stuck in my mind).

Why the heck are you attacking me and being so hostile? I have the Silent Striders Revised Tribebook. It describes their curse and explicitly says "We cannot regain Gnosis within Egypt." (p. 18). They explicitly had to abandon all their caerns, despite caerns being the place where Englings are hunted (p. 19). It explicitly and specifically says that ONLY the Eaters of the Dead can regain Gnosis in Egypt, period. And that they can only do it with a variation of the Wyrm-tainted Rite of Dormant Wisdom, by eating the brains of supernatural creatures "and especially strong-willed humans" (p. 47). THIS IS EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE TRIBEBOOK.

Owning and reading a Tribebook does not make me extremist.

I have never even heard of the "Rite of the Sacred Gift" so I'm guessing it's a new one in W20. Not knowing about it does not make me extremist. Nobody is under any obligation to always agree with you or read the same books as you. Lighten up and stop attacking me. You are bordering on personal attacks. And if you want to cite page 119 of some random book, please specify the title.

And if you have a problem with what I have quoted, don't start in on accusing me of lying, either. Maybe try reading the tribebook yourself?

[Asmodai]

Whoah... Erineyes, I neither called you a liar nor an extremist. There was no ill intent towards you in my posts. In my comment I referred to the book Rage Accross Egypt, from 2001, which is literally the main source we have on the Setite conflict, the strange rules of the curse and the ways the Striders try to reclaim it (and how likely it is to horribly backfire).

Looking at how it's done with Silent Striders in Rage Accross Egypt, I think it's just about meditation not working. Other methods seem to work fine.

Well, "other methods" in Egypt require eating somebody's brain during a Wyrm-Rite. To me that suggests that other, safer and saner methods (such as the Sacred Hunt) don't work for Silent Striders in Khem.

Aren't we jumping to extremes... Page 119 explicitly calls out Meditation and Sacred Hunt as not working and spirit gifted gnosis evaporating. However, it has nothing against Rite of the Sacred Gift. By default Rites and Gifts seem to be working (which was the sensible option that stuck in my mind).

The argument here is that Eating brains is never the solution, as most people don't want to be a part of a ghoulish cult that serves the Wyrm. The whole point of "Rite of the Sacred Gift" is to create a working framework for the Striders to retake their homeland and bring vengeance upon the Setites. But to do it they must ask other Garou for help - in more ways than one.

I own the 2nd ed tribebook and the Revised Tribebook as well as Rage Accross Egypt. Now, White Wolf books being inconsistant between themselves because people didn't know, didn't check or didn't care is not a new thing. Nor is it a reason to go to war.

[Erinys]

Peace. I'm sorry I misunderstood and took it too personally, Asmodai.