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W20 Stacking damage effects

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  • W20 Stacking damage effects

    Greetings,

    I was writing on a thread regarding optimal packs, and got to a point regarding damage dice, it got me thinking about how do stack the gifts/fetishes that double damage (Coup de Grace, Hunter's Talons) dice with automatic successes (The Cleaving Hoof, an attribute or ability specialty).

    Got two specific examples:

    EXAMPLE 1
    • Base Strength 5 (Claws specialty).
    • +4 Strength Crinos Form.
    • +2 Strength Favour of Fenris Fetish.
    • + Any to hit spill over bonus.
    • +1 Claw attack.
    • +2 Razor Claws.
    • +1 Fire Claws Fetish.
    • +2 Soul of Lighting Fetish.
    • +2 Kiss of Helios.
    • +2 Halo of the Sun.
    • + Automatic Strength successes The Cleaving Hoof.
    • + Doubling Strength Might of Thor.
    • + Doubling damage dice Coup de Grace.
    • + Doubling damage dice vs Wyrm creatures with Hunter's Talons.
    My interpretation is that you get 11 base Strength (Base + Crinos + Favour of Fenris), that is doubled with Might of Thor, and then it becomes automatic successes due to The Cleaving Hoof. That gives you 22 automated successes, and then all the other things get affected by the doubling of damage dice that Coup de Grace and Hunter's Talons grant.

    But my friends have a different interpretation, saying that Coup de Grace doubles strength dice before the automation.

    So we have three options:
    1. Limited:
      22 automated Strength successes (11 base doubled by Might of Thor, automated by The Cleaving Hoof)
      +
      20 dice (Razor Claws + Fire Claws + Soul of Lighting + Kiss of Helios + Halo of the Sun doubled with Coup de Grace), doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons.
      +
      Any dice bonus from additional successes on the attack roll would be doubled by Coup de Grace, doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons.
    2. Many Dice:
      22 automated Strength successes (11 base doubled by Might of Thor, automated by The Cleaving Hoof)
      +
      42 dice (Razor Claws + Fire Claws + Soul of Lighting + Kiss of Helios + Halo of the Sun doubled with Coup de Grace and Coup de Grace affecting what was already doubled by Might of Thor), doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons.
      +
      Any dice bonus from additional successes on the attack roll would be doubled by Coup de Grace, doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons.
    3. Many successes:
      44 automated Strength successes (11 base doubled by Might of Thor, doubled by Coup de Grace, automated by The Cleaving Hoof, doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons)
      +
      20 dice (Razor Claws + Fire Claws + Soul of Lighting + Kiss of Helios + Halo of the Sun doubled with Coup de Grace), doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons.
      +
      Any dice bonus from additional successes on the attack roll would be doubled by Coup de Grace, doubled against Wyrm-Creatures by Hunter's Talons.
    Which one is correct?






    EXAMPLE 2
    • Strength 5 (Dagger specialty).
    • +4 Strength Crinos Form.
    • +2 Strength Favour of Fenris Fetish.
    • + Any to hit spill over bonus.
    • + Doubling Strength Might of Thor.
    • + Automatic Strength successes The Cleaving Hoof.
    • + Doubling damage dice Coup de Grace.
    • + Doubling the number of successes, before soak, Fang Dagger Fetish.
    Here is simpler, does or does not Coup de Grace have anything to double? My interpretation is that as Strength became auto successes, the doubling simple does not take place.
    1. Limited:
      44 automated Strength successes (11 base doubled by Might of Thor, automated by The Cleaving Hoof, doubled by the Fang Dagger)
      +
      Any dice bonus from additional successes on the attack roll would be doubled by Coup de Grace.
    2. Many dice:
      44 automated Strength successes (11 base doubled by Might of Thor, automated by The Cleaving Hoof, doubled by the Fang Dagger)
      +
      22 dice (Coup de Grace affecting what was already doubled by Might of Thor)
      +
      Any dice bonus from additional successes on the attack roll would be doubled by Coup de Grace.
    Which one is correct?




    I favour the limited approach on both cases.



    I put here the relevant text regarding the Gifts and Fetishes, emphasis mine:

    Originally posted by Coup de Grace
    The Garou’s Strength
    doubles for one turn per success
    Originally posted by Coup de Grace
    ...the player doubles her damage
    dice
    on the Garou’s next successful attack.
    Originally posted by The Cleaving Hoof
    ...the dice gained from Strength in his damage pool count as automatic successes rather than dice. Dice in the damage pool gained from weapons, claw damage or extra successes on the attack roll must be rolled as usual.
    Originally posted by Hunter's Talons
    The damage is that of a standard Claw attack,
    but by activating the fetish, the Garou can double his dice pool against Wyrm creatures.
    Originally posted by Fang Dagger
    This doubles the number of successes on the
    damage roll, before soak.
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 04-03-2021, 08:46 PM.

  • #2
    Well, I'd say that only static damage dice are doubled. So, attribute and weapon damage. Not additional damage from hit successes and not from other gifts.

    Also, if a garou gets the Black Fury and the Child of Gaia gift, I's say doubling the dice isn't possible any more for those dice that stem from the attribute, since they aren't dice anymore, but auto successes.

    The problem clearly stems from the problem that extra damage gifts seem to be appropriate for basically a lot types of garou, so they all thematically got gifts that work differently, but essentially should increase the damage output. They weren't necessarily meant to be used in unison.

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