Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pegasus and Fenris

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pegasus and Fenris

    In the game setting, the Pegasus Incarna has a problem with the Get of Fenris. In every edition of the corebook, the Pegasus pack totem explicitly will not accept any Get of Fenris as a pack member. And the two tribes have a long history of antagonism towards another.

    However, simply because two tribes do not get along does not mean the Incarna are quarreling. Both Uktena and Wendigo will accept pack members from the Eurasian tribes. Falcon has no issue with adopting Shadow Lords. The only similar issue is Griffin's blanket refusal to accept homids which is really tied into the nature of the Griffin Incarna as developed by the game.

    So what is the reason for Pegasus being so unhappy with Fenris and/or the Get of Fenris?

    Now I think the OOC issue is that originally the Get of Fenris were supposed to be discriminatory against women, not seeing female Garou as equal. In that context, it makes sense Pegasus, the patron of the Black Furies and messenger of Artemis, wouldn't like the Get of Fenris.

    But I don't think that depiction was really kept going forward. Even by second edition that was changing. People wanted the Get to be presented more positively and attractive for players. The tribe was depicted as more egalitarian in a merit based approach (such merit being how physically powerful and brutal you can be in combat). As long as a female Garou was able to meet the Get's martial standards, the female Get were accepted. That seems to be the depiction of the tribe now. So discrimination against women is not something intrinsic to the tribe anymore if it ever was.

    But that leaves us with figuring out why Pegasus won't accept a Get of Fenris as one of her children.

    Now, I can still see the Black Furies not liking the Get of Fenris. Both see themselves as elite warriors, and there is a fierce rivalry as to who is better. And even a more egalitarian Get should have an imbalanced ratio of the sexes. Both humans and wolves are sexually dimorphic. Females of those species tend to be physically smaller and weaker than the males overall. I can easily imagine that a large amount of female Garou born to the Get simply don't have the upper body strength to pass the high physical standards of the Get. Those aren't allowed into the tribe, and have to find some other tribe who will accept them. (This isn't an issue with PCs who can easily assign enough dots in the Strength trait to qualify. But realistically many female NPCs may only have Strength 1. That's not a dealbreaker for other tribes, but I can easily see that as leading to failure in the training prior to and during the Rites of Passage for the Get. There will be males who only have Strength 1 and fail the tests as well, but nobody cares about them.)

    Yet I don't think someone raised within the Get culture would seek to join the normal tribes for those who aren't accepted by their normal tribe, the Children of Gaia and the Bone Gnawers. They probably enter the Black Furies, and some would have a lot of resentment of not being accepted by the Get. And even other Black Furies may consider the Get's standards to not be needed and still be warriors and dislike them on principal. Of course, there should be plenty of female Garou who can pass the Get's tests and do get accepted. And once they do, they don't seem to be discriminated against for being women. They may lose out on leadership positions by not having the physical strength of the strongest males of the tribe (primarily ahrouns), but that is a different issue.

    So while I can see the tribal culture of the Black Furies for multiple reasons not liking the Get, I don't see why Pegasus would discriminate against the Get of Fenris. After all, he won't even allow female Get to join.

    I think one solution would probably be to accept that Pegasus' ban on the Get is an artifact of the early game that is no longer supported and get rid of it. Just add one more retcon to the table. However, I'm curious if it is possible to construct a reasonable rationale that explains Pegasus not accepting the Get.

    Is there something about the totems that might explain this? That would make the issue one between Pegasus and Fenris. Although it would be one sided – Fenris doesn't have any objection about accepting Black Furies as a pack totem. Fenris after all is a very brutal Incarna. But even Unicorn accepts Get of Fenris theoretically.

    Could it be some offense the tribe made against Pegasus in the early days of the Garou that so offended Pegasus that only an incredible chiminage by the tribe to Chiminage could end the ban? I think this may be our best option, but I am unable to imagine what kind of action could result in such anger against the entire tribe. This probably needs a lot of brainstorming.

    Or is there something else that could explain this?

    Interested in your comments and ideas.

  • #2
    Given their Tribe Weakness, even if it isn't really implemented as a rule it isn't hard to figure that sexism may be common among them even today. But that is more of a side note, because otherwise I agree with everything, Pegasus is weirdly biased against the Get far beyond reason for a spirit, although to be sincere it is one of the most contrived tribal totems to begin with.

    Well, I distinctly remember a bit of lore that the Furies and the Get sometimes exchange cubs, females for males. I'm not sure where I read or if a heard that, though, but it can still be the starting point for us to come with something? Maybe this is an ancient pact between the Get and Pegasus, and both the Furies and Fenris have nothing directly to do with it.

    Tribal totems in general are a part of the game where it started really nonsensical, the authors had no idea of what they were doing or what the legends behind those creatures really looked like, and any cohesion we got later was basically through new authors creating internal lore just to answer questions that shouldn't exist. Like, why a tribe of women is protected by the horse of Zeus...


    #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
    #AutismPride
    She/her pronouns

    Comment


    • #3
      Fenrir don't really care if you are physically weak, as long as you are strong in SOME way, you are accepted.

      But to the topic; I agree it is very much a leftover from older editions. Though Furies only became the extreme types in the second edition, in the first they were pretty chill and spiritual. In the first edition core, the reason is listed as the feud between tribes.

      Personally, I'd say it is something that SHOULD be removed, because it only makes pegasus look petty.

      As for the totem selection being random; Yeah. Most are pretty good, but pegasus for example makes very little sense. As do Furies coming from ancient Greece of all places.


      My gallery.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
        Fenrir don't really care if you are physically weak, as long as you are strong in SOME way, you are accepted.
        Within limits. The Get of Fenris still aim to be strong in physical strength, but also exhibit endurance, strong will, conviction and some other traits. But just being "strong" in one aspect but being weak in a lot of others just won't be good enough for the Get of Fenris.

        This of course is paradoxical, since Get of Fenris start characters have the same dots to spread over their character sheet than any other cliath from any other tribe. They aren't better, stronger, or something, than other characters from other tribes. Still, there is a certain mindset to the Get of Fenris...

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that it's probably a hold over and doesn't need to be there. Even if you remove it, Pegasus's pack ban is going to be hard on most Fenrir anyway as it would rankled their Tribal culture a lot.

          That said, I think you can make a case for keeping it if inclined based on the Revised Black Fury Tribebook. With how Pegasus is presented there (which is a lot more info than the short blurbs in the core), how the Fenrir approach egalitarianism would be extremely bad in Pegasus's views. The Fenrir exalt the strong, and in their culture might makes right. Pegasus would abhor that. Pegasus considers it vital to protect the weak from the strong, as the strong are inclined to abuse their power. This is even more true regarding the Fenrir's militaristic bend and Pegasus's own history with being defeated by a warrior and made a servant.

          It's still tenuous, but I think it's enough for Pegasus to consider joining the Fenrir as sign that a Garou rejects Pegasus's desire for putting defending those that suffer under the strong over fighting to prove your strength. From there, not allowing them in has some sense to it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            Fenrir don't really care if you are physically weak, as long as you are strong in SOME way, you are accepted.
            Every tribe obviously has some sort of minimum standard that must be achieved before they rule their cubs are ready for their Rite of Passage, even if this is something handwaved during character creation. The Fenrir rites are supposed to be so brutal that cubs can die. While I think later editions downplayed that (possibly because earlier editions showed far more Garou than would be justified in later editions), that still happens. So I think the Get must have some level of physical standards that cause people to wash out. They may still respect a Get of Fenris who only has a physical Strength of 2 and minimum Brawl skills because they have useful skills in other areas, but I don't think they accept physical weaklings. Even Ragabashes, Theurges, and the like are expected to be warriors first, much like how every Marine is a Rifleman. That's how I run the Get at least.

            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            Personally, I'd say it is something that SHOULD be removed, because it only makes pegasus look petty.
            I definitely think this is an option. But I also think if a compelling reason can be found to explain Pegasus excluding the Get of Fenris, that that can provide additional drama in the setting that some STs may like.
            Last edited by Black Fox; 09-17-2021, 09:16 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              This of course is paradoxical, since Get of Fenris start characters have the same dots to spread over their character sheet than any other cliath from any other tribe. They aren't better, stronger, or something, than other characters from other tribes. Still, there is a certain mindset to the Get of Fenris...
              Well, that's an artifact of every player using the same character creation rules. Those are just for PCs. It's not that every Garou ever born has the exact same theoretical number of "build points" which is a meaningless concept outside a game. All PCs get the same build points for character creation. People aren't equal in the natural talents born to them, how well they've developed them, or how ambitious they are in improving themselves or the opportunities presented to them, and therefore neither are the Garou as characters. NPCs don't need to be made according to character creation guidelines.

              If you take the setting seriously, the Get weed out a lot of Garou from joining their ranks. And because they've been doing this for thousands or years and actively maintain strong relations with their kinfolk and take in new kinfolk who share those qualities, their stock of new Garou have a more likely chance of qualifying than say Garou in another tribe who doesn't try to cultivate those qualities at all.

              In practice, I think players creating characters instinctively choose to build their characters in a way that justifies those characters being in those tribes and passing their Rite of Passage. A person wanting to play a Get likely doesn't keep their Strength at 1 or take no Brawl or other combat skills. And if they did, I think it would be correct for an ST to say, "No, I'm not going to allow it. You'd never survive the Rite of Passage or be accepted by Fenris." But such a strange character (for a PC playing an RPG game where combat is assumed will play a major role) could easily be accepted at another tribe (at least if it wasn't for the Ahroun auspice).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                Every tribe obviously has some sort of minimum standard that must be achieved before they rule their cubs are ready for their Rite of Passage, even if this is something handwaved during character creation. The Fenrir rites are supposed to be so brutal that cubs can die. While I think later editions downplayed that (possibly because earlier editions showed far more Garou than would be justified in later editions), that still happens. So I think the Get must have some level of physical standards that cause people to wash out. They may still respect a Get of Fenris who only has a physical Strength of 2 and minimum Brawl skills because they have useful skills in other areas, but I don't think they accept physical weaklings. Even Ragabashes, Theurges, and the like are expected to be warriors first, much like how every Marine is a Rifleman. That's how I run the Get at least.
                Oh yes, they absolutely do weed out those who can't hack it. It has actually been a minor issue in a game I'm helping to run, people making Fenrir and then not wanting to play the tribal mentality.

                What I meant is that the Fenrir generally look for someone who can tolerate their tough initiation rites and still come swinging. They might not be the physically strongest, but they absolutely are mentally strong enough to not give up even after being treated like shit for their whole cubhood.

                That is actually the reason a lot of Furies dislike the Fenrir; The initiation times are so hellish and DO include misogynic insults, that the female garou who cannot handle it go to the Furies. The Fenrir are often confused by the hate, as -everyone- gets treated like shit as a cub. I guess this is why Fenris does not limits Furies while Pegasus limits Fenrir.


                My gallery.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  I definitely think this is an option. But I also think if a compelling reason can be found to explain Pegasus excluding the Get of Fenris, that that can provide additional drama in the setting that some STs may like.
                  That's the most important point here. It is clearly an artifact of 1st edition and the simplest way to correct the inconsistency is to get rid of it.

                  But that can be said of almost everything about the totems. This is fiction, so new explanations and iterations can be created. This happened several times to make the other totems work, this already happened to Pegasus itself to justify it being the Furies' totem. In-character Pegasus was created as a check over the Furies, not even their ally, but has changed by its experience with Bellerophon and decided that by championing people frequently downtrodden the Furies deserved its blessings. It isn't even really that invested in feminism in particular. OoC? Pegasus was just the next thing to a unicorn in Greek Mythology, so why not give it to a tribe of Amazons? The above story would only appear later.

                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  Well, that's an artifact of every player using the same character creation rules.
                  And it's worth to say that although they define a starting character, so one yet inexperienced in the main dealings of the game, this system creates an above average person. extremely above average if you remember that an average person should have, for example, a 3/3/3 distribution on Attributes, and maybe 10 dots scattered through Abilites.

                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  And if they did, I think it would be correct for an ST to say, "No, I'm not going to allow it.
                  I wouldn't go as far, but would ask the player why their character is so outside expectations and how they managed to become a Get. The player may come up with an interesting story and, again, PCs aren't average people, so by all means they can be the weird exceptional cases.

                  On the same vein, I wouldn't be totally against a PC that won't follow the tribe mentality, because cultures aren't monoliths. No one here is a prime example of our own respective cultures. And as described, tribe is culture first among Garou. The Fenrir don't look for prospective cubs around, they accept them if they come. But their basic stock is their own children and kinfolk, in-character, for most members of most tribes it was as much a choice as nationality is. And as such, there are cultural pressures, but also deviations.


                  #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                  #AutismPride
                  She/her pronouns

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I Think either a shadow lord pledging to falcon or a silver fang pledging to grandfather thunder will be seen as "Different " From most of their tribe likely getting some suspician from their tribe mates.


                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X