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  • CTPhipps
    started a topic Werewolf 5th Edition information in Crimson Thaw

    Werewolf 5th Edition information in Crimson Thaw

    Hey folks,

    The back of the latest issue of the VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE comic has some interesting news about Werewolves in the V5 era.

    Amazon Link:
    https://www.amazon.com/World-Darknes...dp/B097YZYLQC/



    Some samples of the text:

    The Apocalypse has come and gone and we live in its aftermath. The Garou among us, dying out like their mother. That is the world itself is dying--these are the times of the Malady, of the world's warming and the waters rising.
    A symbol of the Malady, Gaia's Howl, reverberated among the wilds and the spirit-places and even in the cities of humans as the Malady fouled the Earth. It has been perceptible by the Garou ever since and werewolves can see, hear, taste, and small, and even its waning pulse.
    ...insisting that the Apocalypse is yet to come and will be a glorious battle, or that the Garou have already won it!
    Until recently, a fragile unity bonded the tribes but that unity has been broken. The Garou Nation is shattered and the very Litany it once upheld is itself in question. What use are pacts and promises when the Mother existed to protect breathes her last.
    One of the tribes has abandoned the others entirely, so convinced are they of the truth of their cause and the inaction of the other werewolves. Another tribe has lost faith in the Garou and has withdrawn to seek other allies in the fight against Gaia's foes. Now, the only grasp a werewolf can trust is their own pack.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-22-2021, 11:31 PM.

  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    I think that Ravnos may have been referring to articles on the more recent, live action version that really, really shat the bed across the board.
    I know, me too. I was making a comparison. The animated movie is fun. The live action movie is boring. I'll edit for clarity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post


    The part about the US White Knighting the whole world is certainly a common perception, and by what I see of US commentators I think it is indeed real. And the part on Mulan, it was partly the problem of not hiring a proper consultant, instead AFAIK they gave the production team a time to go to China to "learn local culture", but didn't hired any Chinese to work on production proper, just as actors. So they had American writers, American producers, American directors, and an almost touristic American view of China. Also it was partly just the movie being bad, plain bad. Like, the animation wasn't very ethnic accurate, but it was fun. The movie is boring, and no cultural accuracy will change that.
    I think that Ravnos may have been referring to articles on the more recent, live action version that really, really shat the bed across the board.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
    I don't have a solid opinion on exoticization. In 90% of pop culture products, Italy is exoticized.
    First of all, I think you brought some really good observations, I'll just add some points.

    I'm a Brazilian living in Brazil, so my actual personal experience with exoticization is similar to yours, despite nowadays I'm being one of those grumpier types that don't like to accept this shit. But the bigger problem isn't for us (at least not directly), but for people from our countries or descendants of those living there. Or people from other countries living in ours. That's when those problems become RL problems.

    Also, context matters, and here it means the corpus of media a work is inserted in. There's a huge difference between a given group being played as exotic when they're frequently represented in more grounded ways, from when they're almost always represented as exotic, even if the work itself is the same. Exoticization isn't the mere show of a culture as difference, but the regular and systematic representation of that culture as some kind of fantastic prop instead of people.

    Other than that, mostly agree. Talking about the mess of the original setting matters to contextualize, but we can only blame the authors for this past so far. After all, with all the problems it's still a setting that managed to gather Brazilians, Italians, Germans, Japanese, Koreans, just to name a few nationalities in this forum, to discuss those games 30 years after publication. What really matters is that the authors from now can't commit the same mistakes, they don't have an excuse anymore.

    The part about the US White Knighting the whole world is certainly a common perception, and by what I see of US commentators I think it is indeed real. And the part on Mulan, it was partly the problem of not hiring a proper consultant, instead AFAIK they gave the production team a time to go to China to "learn local culture", but didn't hired any Chinese to work on production proper, just as actors. So they had American writers, American producers, American directors, and an almost touristic American view of China. Also it was partly just the movie being bad, plain bad. Like, the animation wasn't very ethnic accurate, but it was fun. The live action movie is boring, and no cultural accuracy will change that.
    Last edited by monteparnas; 04-30-2022, 03:14 AM. Reason: added "live action" for clarity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ravnos
    replied
    A quick post.
    I just want to apologize about my Shang-Chi mistake
    I double-checked and even found the articles I remembered
    But I remembered them incorrectly!
    The flop movie the articles that I've read were talking about was in fact Mulan, not Shang-Chi.
    In the same articles they talked about Shang-Chi too, hence my fuzzy memory.
    And indeed Shang-Chi hasn't been released in China yet, and maybe it won't be, due possibly to censorship of the chinese government. Allegedly the chinese government said the chinese cultural aspects are bad represented or mistaken, BUT given it's the chinese government talking and we're also talking about censorship I would definitely take the governement's opinion with a big grain of salt.
    So, very sorry about my mistake.
    Still, I agree the Cultural Uncanny Valley is definitely worth considering

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    While I might get into the bigger post later, a point of order:

    Shang-Chi has yet to be released in China. You can't really call a movie a flop with an audience that hasn't gotten a chance to see it, and has had almost a year now of their government saying it's bad representation of Chinese values as to why they aren't allowing it to be distributed there (even if outside of China a lot of people assume it's because the Chinese government is using it to punish the Chinese diaspora community that's highly critical of said government by targeting Western made films that have lots of ethnic Chinese influence behind the camera).

    The Cultural Uncanny Valley effect is still worth considering for how to handle WoD topics, but lets make sure we have data on an given work's popularity/reception to go off of.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    No, at least from the reviews of it I've seen. It had to do more with Shang Chi being not unfamiliar enough to be a draw, because the rest of it was too run of the mill compared to martial arts action movies from China. It's a concept that CJ Leung of Cool History Bros labeled the Cultural Uncanny Valley.
    Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is notable for being a very boring and paint by the numbers movie in China.

    Humorously, THE LAST SAMURAI was known as a Ken Watanabe movie in Japan with Tom Cruise considered the ethnic comic relief.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Ravnos View Post

    To give an example in recent times: Shang-Chi movie was sort of a flop in China.
    Apparently, at least from what I gathered, the supposedly cultural aspects and myths were handled very badly at the end of the day, despite the flag of representation being held high by the producers.
    So, apparently it was still best intentions but also exoticization to the max
    No, at least from the reviews of it I've seen. It had to do more with Shang Chi being not unfamiliar enough to be a draw, because the rest of it was too run of the mill compared to martial arts action movies from China. It's a concept that CJ Leung of Cool History Bros labeled the Cultural Uncanny Valley.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ravnos
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Native Americans IRL specifically asked to drop it. Not by far as intensely as they asked to drop Wendigo, but still. Yes, it is offensive.

    Main reasons:

    1 - Only those two tribes used their patron's name directly as tribal name. While apparently subtle, this is a fine example of exoticization;

    2 - The authors had zero understanding of what the spirit meant in its original culture and general cultural context, just used a White Pop Culture understanding of it without ever consulting a Native opinion, which is problematic in several levels;

    3 - It broadly applies to all Natives a name that actually belongs to only one tribe, without regards to any nuance on how diverse and distinct the cultures of the several Native nations are. It is as if there were only two European Tribes called Broxa and Chernobog.
    I see that the discussion developed further, but I want to adress this message because it was quoting me, and because I also want to add to the discussion my Italian perspective of an Italian living in Italy.
    But as a foreword, I want to say that by no means I intend to dismiss the problem as non-existent.
    I'm actually trying to understand better how people in USA are perceving such problems.

    First of all, something I didn't know was that the native IRL asked specifically to drop it. So I'd say what was right to do was surely to drop it.

    I don't have a solid opinion on exoticization. In 90% of pop culture products, Italy is exoticized.
    Really, it's to the point of silliness and ridicoulness almost all the time. But it's not a big deal to me.
    I've met really few people that decisively lamented about it. When it's about us we usually roll our eyes up or sometimes even enjoy a laugh about it.
    I'll also add that I always liked the Giovanni as they were, despite some of the terrible implications of the stereotype of them.
    My humble opinion is that any author that decides to place some of their suff in another country will be inevitably victim of some kind of exoticization, because story takes place in another country exactly because it feels more exotic that way.
    I firmly believe that works of fiction shouldn't be taken as a textbook. Any kind of fiction should be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak.

    But italians weren't genocided by the people the author comes from until less than two hundreds years ago (which is a very short time frame if we think about it), so there's that to take into consideration for the specific case.

    I personally think Rein-Hagen & Co. had the best of intentions regarding the matter, but they didn't have the resource and easy access to information that there is today back in 1991. So the original authors shouldn't be criminalized as they did intentionally something very wrong. They were just born and grow up in a life that was a bit out of touch with such problems.

    So, I'll stop talking about the specific case from here on because I came to the conclusion that dropping the name was the right thing to do.
    But I have issues with this idea that exoticization is plainly wrong by itself.
    I mean, my personal opinion is at a minimum degree it's kind of inevitable once you decide to set a story very far from home.
    Also, somewhere in the world there are people that might like exoticized stuff. Or stuff that wasn't meant to be exoticized but certainly it is from an outsider point of view.
    For example we should ask some japanese players if they preferred Vampire when the myth of Caine was more centric to the setting due to Rule of Cool, or if they prefer it now as more agnostic.

    I will say again, I'm not talking about the specific case because I think it is being handled in a good way. I'm talking about exoticization in works of fiction for broader and more general cases.

    To give an example in recent times: Shang-Chi movie was sort of a flop in China.
    Apparently, at least from what I gathered, the supposedly cultural aspects and myths were handled very badly at the end of the day, despite the flag of representation being held high by the producers.
    So, apparently it was still best intentions but also exoticization to the max

    I don't see too much difference in what's being done sometimes today than what Rein-Hagen & Co. did in 1991: best intentions, not-so-great execution.
    So I think such problems must be addressed, and also the debate must go on

    I saw in a post earlier some talking about White Knighting.
    I'll add to the debate that one of the perceived stereotypes about USA is that on this matters USA has a tendency to White Knighting the whole world.
    And the other perceived stereotype about USA is that USA people understand little of the outside world (as someone else already brought up here about the cultures of Europe and the fact that they are simple not known in USA).
    I think for this kind of debates to go further that this USA perception of themselves should be addressed (if it's not a stereotype perception from outside, that is). Otherwise it will always be exoticitazation to the max (but again, is it really that serious an issue? My personal guess is that a lot of people in the world just shrug and think: "Eh, Americans." when that kind of exoticization happens to themselves)

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    In any case, I'd love it, if the Setting would shift back to focus more on septs that differ from another and Garou focusing more on local problems.
    The essential problem is that there are only two effective ways to do this:

    1) Reboot it so you can allow this to be more naturally the case. Maybe nWW/Paradox should have just done this from the start, but their attachment to the cWOD brand drove them to not want to take this option.

    2) Use the metaplot to radically change all the elements in the setting that cause a more standardized culture within the Garou Nation. This is obviously Paradox's preference on things so far, but it's also been rather divisive in the fandom because it means Paradox is picking which aspects of the setting get kept, and which get axed instead of trying to support a broader range of preferences. BNS's take on WtA was geared in many ways towards making local things more unique - or another way to look at it is would be to say to enable local LARP groups to do their own things while still being able to participate in one of the larger LARP network - but most of those changes are not well received by TT focused groups.

    Interesting.
    I... guess?

    Even with increasing globalization of human culture, most cultures don't have direct and consistent exchange with one another. Sometimes this results in one-way exchanges (some countries tend to export a lot of culture and thus there's the seeds of stereotypes being spread around without a return; lots of people consume US made media while the US doesn't import media from those countries at anything resembling reciprocal rates), and sometimes there just isn't any. I'm confident you could go to any place on the planet, pick two far off countries, and ask the people what's the difference between people in those two countries and you'd get blank stares. Do you have strong ideas about how Lithuanians and Latvians are different? What about Bolivians and Paraguayans? Laotians and Cambodians? Even if you personally have strong ideas about this, how many of your neighbors do? Etc.

    Still, I imagine, that two consultants might come to different conclusions regarding a given topic.
    Sure.

    But consider that the main two potential results of such differing conclusions are:

    1) Most people of the relevant cultures think that putting in the effort was good enough and aren't going to hold it against a company that the experts can't agree.

    2) The company gets credit for consulting an expert, but it's clear they should hire the other one next time; creating a greater awareness of which experts have a better sense of what the real people they're trying to communicate the cultures of feel about things.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    You also don't seem to be appreciating the time frames we're talking about. You're talking about cultural exchange between cultures that are basically only a few centuries old (France in 2022 is not anything like France in 12222), while many of the Garou Tribes have changed exceedingly little over thousands of years. If you went back in time 500 years, to the place you live now, people wouldn't be speaking the same language (though yes, similar) and would be a vastly different culture from what you're used to. Modern France would definitely seem a lot more relatable to you than that. A Silver Fang can go back in time 5,000 years, communicate easily, and find that the "alpha" Tribe really hasn't changed much in general attitudes and philosophies.

    Yes I focused on moon bridges, because that's about different Septs and how easily they can access each other for exchange and trade. The Garou have lots of other tools that make cultural drift less impactful than it is in humans... like the ability to just ask your great-great-grandparents how they handled things.
    Well, you are right, there is indication in the books that tribes didn't change that much, and Garou Tongue didn't change that much and so on. And sure, having contact to ancestor spirits is part of that. On the other hand, there are Renewalists amongst the Silver Fangs, too. And the tribes changed do to an shift towards more homid in their ranks.

    In any case, I'd love it, if the Setting would shift back to focus more on septs that differ from another and Garou focusing more on local problems.

    Thanks

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    But also? The US doesn't actually have particularly strong stereotypes around most European cultures. Why isn't there a Tribe with Portuguese stereotypes? Because aforementioned US writers didn't actually have any stereotypes about Portuguese people to base a Tribe on. There isn't some idea of Portuguese culture in the US cultural mindset. There's a reason why US stereotypes around eastern Europe are about a giant area of the continent and not individual countries and cultures: people here don't know enough to even start to form more specific stereotypes.
    Interesting.

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Heavy Arms covered well the Ghost Dance. About "Council", this is the default translation for the terms the First Nations actually use in North America to define their inter-tribal organizations. They had this kind of institution to help ease relations between tribes or reduce violence in times of war way before the American settlers arrived, and currently still keep Tribal Councils as inter-tribal organs to help ease relations and pool resources where they need it.

    So while we don't know what will be made of them in the game yet, at first Ghost Council makes a lot of actual sense.
    Interesting.
    This information should be in a side bar and there should be a disclaimer that "Ghost Council" is the best estimate translation into English, but possibly there should be also names in first nation languages given, to showcase that the name is language depended and several members of the tribe might call the tribe by different names.

    It may be that in German the two words got conflated, that kind of thing happens sometimes. But in English (and Portuguese, I can attest), they're really distinct, and while subtle the distinction is extremely important.

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    You don't ask a random. There are things like representatives and consultants. If you want to go cheap you seek a representative, a person that takes on themselves the responsibility to understand their own group as much as possible to bridge this kind of gap, either as voluntary work or hired by some governance body within the group. If you want to be certain you hire a consultant, a person whose work is precisely to help you understand what you need to understand for your purposes.

    Those are professionals being paid to do the heavy-lift of proper a study, not random people being interviewed in the streets. And they're not that hard to find and hire, even with the caveat of wanting specifically consultants on a given ethnic group no one sought out before. Which is not the case with the First Nations, instead they keep several certified bodies of consultants and even free services for consultation on cultural implications.

    All minorities and countries I know of have those kinds of services because being understood is kind of our goal. The only way to not know that such services exist is to never have asked, which is perfectly fine for you, who're just discussing things in a forum, but is inexcusable for a media company talking going global with their IP and putting money on it. Consultation is a minor cost that should just be a part of the process.

    If you're interested in, countries generally have such services at their embassies or equivalent outpost, they help authors, scholars and potential travelers to their country, most actually help anyone who asks, at least in some way.
    I get that. Still, I imagine, that two consultants might come to different conclusions regarding a given topic. So, I totally see that the today, when reworking the games, such services seem like the best way.

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    A lot of Asian players would like the same as you, actually, I don't know if they're a majority or not (but i have a guess). But here Paradox already made their mind as it seems and you won't be happy with it.



    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    As Heavy Arms said, the point isn't in the specific numbers. Werewolf established too soon that the Garou have a hugely stable culture, with little change through time, they share most myths and the core of their religion, they have a global spanning war in their hands, and they have access to several tools to ease interactions between them. Those are global premises. Not going global with their society wouldn't make sense.

    Now, they can be somewhat diverse, but ultimately it is making them isolated or even insular that doesn't make sense.
    They share myth, sure. Most myths, not necessarily. Like I said, there are hundreds of thousands of local legends. It is said that, even in prehistory, it took several long meetings and still the whole bunch of negotiators had to move the meeting to Pangea to condense tenets out of the legends.
    Sure, it is also said the Litany is a whole bunch of stories and songs, presumably shared amongst all the tribes - but possibly not, since it is said to take a lifetime to master it. And the Silver Record is also valid for all the tribes. But that doesn't negate the possibly infinite number of stories local to septs.
    And, sure, the garou share a cosmology and the essence of their religion is shared among the tribes, but as you point out, the garou have had contact with each other over the ages and the core elements of their religion, the Triad, Gaia and Celestines therefore remained a stable factor in all tribal mythology.

    In the end, it is speculation, weather or not the garou's means of travel etc. would allow for cultural differences between septs or not, since it is a fictional setting, not a case study in anthropology. But, if you can ask your great-great-grandparent, who they handled things, and the answer might be: "We did this and that, but my daughter didn't like it, so she and a bunch of her peers left and conquered their own land to rule."

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    I mean, why "Ghost", not spirit? And why "Council"?
    Heavy Arms covered well the Ghost Dance. About "Council", this is the default translation for the terms the First Nations actually use in North America to define their inter-tribal organizations. They had this kind of institution to help ease relations between tribes or reduce violence in times of war way before the American settlers arrived, and currently still keep Tribal Councils as inter-tribal organs to help ease relations and pool resources where they need it.

    So while we don't know what will be made of them in the game yet, at first Ghost Council makes a lot of actual sense.

    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Is that so? In German archetype is rarely used, as a word
    It may be that in German the two words got conflated, that kind of thing happens sometimes. But in English (and Portuguese, I can attest), they're really distinct, and while subtle the distinction is extremely important.

    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    As with any group, asking a member is hardly a representative study and I'd imagine a lot of people from Native American communities have a lot of more pressing problems than the misuse of a word from their culture in a RPG and related media,
    You don't ask a random. There are things like representatives and consultants. If you want to go cheap you seek a representative, a person that takes on themselves the responsibility to understand their own group as much as possible to bridge this kind of gap, either as voluntary work or hired by some governance body within the group. If you want to be certain you hire a consultant, a person whose work is precisely to help you understand what you need to understand for your purposes.

    Those are professionals being paid to do the heavy-lift of proper a study, not random people being interviewed in the streets. And they're not that hard to find and hire, even with the caveat of wanting specifically consultants on a given ethnic group no one sought out before. Which is not the case with the First Nations, instead they keep several certified bodies of consultants and even free services for consultation on cultural implications.

    All minorities and countries I know of have those kinds of services because being understood is kind of our goal. The only way to not know that such services exist is to never have asked, which is perfectly fine for you, who're just discussing things in a forum, but is inexcusable for a media company talking going global with their IP and putting money on it. Consultation is a minor cost that should just be a part of the process.

    If you're interested in, countries generally have such services at their embassies or equivalent outpost, they help authors, scholars and potential travelers to their country, most actually help anyone who asks, at least in some way.

    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Regarding the KotE situation, I wish they would find collaborators from Asia and salvage the Setting
    A lot of Asian players would like the same as you, actually, I don't know if they're a majority or not (but i have a guess). But here Paradox already made their mind as it seems and you won't be happy with it.

    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Dark Ages Werewolf lists 5.000 miles and the distance might have been even shorter earlier in time.
    As Heavy Arms said, the point isn't in the specific numbers. Werewolf established too soon that the Garou have a hugely stable culture, with little change through time, they share most myths and the core of their religion, they have a global spanning war in their hands, and they have access to several tools to ease interactions between them. Those are global premises. Not going global with their society wouldn't make sense.

    Now, they canbe somewhat diverse, but ultimately it is making them isolated or even insular that doesn't make sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    I mean, why "Ghost", not spirit?
    Because it's a direct reference to The Ghost Dance, a wide-spread inter-tribal spiritual movement by Native Americans to protest European expansionism and genocide and promote peaceful interactions between cultures. Ghost is most commonly used in translation because the word in the language where the movement started essentially means "ancestor spirit" as in the spirits of departed humans that the dance is meant to seek aid from, instead of other sorts of spirits. Using spirit would lose the connotations of fighting for cultural heritage and survival in the face of oppression.

    Leaving it untranslated would be hard given how few people are familiar with indigenous North American languages to have a clue of what to associate that with.

    Of course Ghost Dance has other pitfalls that might not be well suited to reference if not done carefully (aka with input from people that know these things at an expert level).

    Dark Ages Werewolf lists 5.000 miles and the distance might have been even shorter earlier in time.
    I don't think you're really appreciating what these sorts of distances mean when were discussing the ability of the Garou to have a relatively consistent normalized culture between Septs.

    You also don't seem to be appreciating the time frames we're talking about. You're talking about cultural exchange between cultures that are basically only a few centuries old (France in 2022 is not anything like France in 12222), while many of the Garou Tribes have changed exceedingly little over thousands of years. If you went back in time 500 years, to the place you live now, people wouldn't be speaking the same language (though yes, similar) and would be a vastly different culture from what you're used to. Modern France would definitely seem a lot more relatable to you than that. A Silver Fang can go back in time 5,000 years, communicate easily, and find that the "alpha" Tribe really hasn't changed much in general attitudes and philosophies.

    Yes I focused on moon bridges, because that's about different Septs and how easily they can access each other for exchange and trade. The Garou have lots of other tools that make cultural drift less impactful than it is in humans... like the ability to just ask your great-great-grandparents how they handled things.

    If you find it, I will make an effort to read it.
    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...40#post1301240

    True. But what would one expect from an American writer team producing a game for the American market.
    I'm not talking about if the mistakes made 30 years ago were understandable. I'm talking about what to do with the game now that it's 30 years later and we understand those mistakes for what they are.

    Thanks for the detailed in-universe description. What I meant was why there are no tribes specifically tied to stereotypes or cliches about those countries - from a development standpoint. Was a baguette-wielding mime not a suitable template for a werewolf tribe?
    Again, House Gleaming Eye.

    But also? The US doesn't actually have particularly strong stereotypes around most European cultures. Why isn't there a Tribe with Portuguese stereotypes? Because aforementioned US writers didn't actually have any stereotypes about Portuguese people to base a Tribe on. There isn't some idea of Portuguese culture in the US cultural mindset. There's a reason why US stereotypes around eastern Europe are about a giant area of the continent and not individual countries and cultures: people here don't know enough to even start to form more specific stereotypes.

    --------------------------

    Originally posted by TwoDSix View Post
    Honestly, while to me WtA has a much more interesting concept than WtF, the fact that the Tribes are heavily tied to specific cultures, along with the most likely accidental implication that Europe has more cultural diversity than any other continent. It's not an inherently unsolvable issue, but still a bit annoying.

    Like we can apparently lump all of Asia into one tribe but need two Celtic ones (even if one of them is dead). WtA is kind of just filled with problematic implications stemming from the tying of tribes to both real world groups and archetypes. Yes camps solve some of the diversity issues, but they do nothing for others.
    As I've waxed on about a lot in previous threads: the problem is that WtA has two ideas of what a Tribe is. The games have, so far, never settled on one idea of what makes a Tribe, or fully explore the implications of two distinct ideas of Tribe existing and how that impacts Garou culture.

    Camps are a useful solution to resolving the definition of Tribe to one concept, because Camps can then take up the roles dropped. If you make Tribes more like the Silver Fangs and Bone Gnawers - groups attached to archetypes rather than specific cultures - Camps (or Houses for Silver Fangs) step in to take on the culturally or geographically linked parts of Garou society.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by TwoDSix View Post
    Honestly, while to me WtA has a much more interesting concept than WtF, the fact that the Tribes are heavily tied to specific cultures, along with the most likely accidental implication that Europe has more cultural diversity than any other continent. It's not an inherently unsolvable issue, but still a bit annoying.

    Like we can apparently lump all of Asia into one tribe but need two Celtic ones (even if one of them is dead). WtA is kind of just filled with problematic implications stemming from the tying of tribes to both real world groups and archetypes. Yes camps solve some of the diversity issues, but they do nothing for others.
    Asia used to be represented by a lot more, but the writing in Revised for some reason decided to focus entirely on the Hakken and Stargazers, playing up a rivalry with extremely cheap heat. Prior work painted a different picture - in addition to the Silver Fang house of the Blood Red Crest, Caerns: Places of Power also set down, at the bare minimum, the presence of Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers, as they are supposed to follow humanity around as a whole and not actually of a specific ethnic group.

    Leave a comment:


  • TwoDSix
    replied
    Honestly, while to me WtA has a much more interesting concept than WtF, the fact that the Tribes are heavily tied to specific cultures, along with the most likely accidental implication that Europe has more cultural diversity than any other continent. It's not an inherently unsolvable issue, but still a bit annoying.

    Like we can apparently lump all of Asia into one tribe but need two Celtic ones (even if one of them is dead). WtA is kind of just filled with problematic implications stemming from the tying of tribes to both real world groups and archetypes. Yes camps solve some of the diversity issues, but they do nothing for others.
    Last edited by TwoDSix; 04-27-2022, 09:19 AM.

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