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New W5 info from the 14th of October Twitch

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  • New W5 info from the 14th of October Twitch

    So a prerecorded interview with Justin Achilli is going on right now on the worldofdarkness twich channel

    They've moved onto Hunter now, but I thought people who don't have the time to watch everything will be interested in the following:

    Two native american cultural advisors on the team
    Tribes as less tied to geography and culture and more to concept
    Focus on younger werewolves trying to reclaim what was lost
    World is fucked up horribly but not post apocalyptic
    Umbra as a hostile place, caerns cut off from the spirit world
    haglust (spelling?) -> opposite to Harano, hysterical zeal, embodied by a new antagonist tribe that may or may not be right
    Focus on renown as something that empowers the Garou
    Getting rid of Metis and Pure Breed
    No more Garou Shall not Mate with Garou
    I'll add anything else if they loop back to Werewolf later on.
    Last edited by Asmodai; 10-14-2021, 11:30 AM.


    What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

  • #2
    Thank you!

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    • #3
      Don't know how they're going to pass some of that through without some heavy retcons. Also, continued boo on clamping down on Umbra instead of focus on chulorviah going further inland due to sea level rise from climate change.

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      • #4
        Dino, I know that you and I would probably really enjoy playing in the same game, but they continued by doubling down later in the stream "Umbra is actively rejecting the werewolves". This screams Avatar Storm 2.0 and everything that came along with that.


        What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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        • #5
          Okay, it sounded good until the Umbra thing (urgh.) As for the metis, I need to be honest they were going to be cut anyway. Metis as a concept is rife with ableism and child abuse, stuff that no longer flies as easily as it did when 1e was released.

          The removal of Garou shall not Mate with Garou, though, makes me a bit worried. In Forsaken, that made sense, since uratha are very much a disperate people. But garou are more structured.

          Has there been anything about the lupus breed?

          In general, it sounds like Forsaken a bit too much.


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          • #6
            Nothing was said about Lupus or breed at all. Only that the "Metis are out". From my point Umbra and the spirits were one of the strongest points of Werewolf and I can quite agree with misgivings towards that.


            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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            • #7
              I think the metis, pure breed and breeding changes are good but this comes with caveats. Namely, instead of saying this sounds like Forsaken(and to note I am a big CofD fan) the way I'd put it is more that it's taking the lessons learned from Forsaken. However this is not all positive for me because with the increasing use of that with the book approval situation etc I am increasingly distrustful of Paradox and it's plans for CofD.


              Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
                I think the metis, pure breed and breeding changes are good but this comes with caveats. Namely, instead of saying this sounds like Forsaken(and to note I am a big CofD fan) the way I'd put it is more that it's taking the lessons learned from Forsaken. However this is not all positive for me because with the increasing use of that with the book approval situation etc I am increasingly distrustful of Paradox and it's plans for CofD.

                When I say it is too much like Forsaken, I mean it is losing elements that make Forsaken and Apocalypse different games. If we lose lupus, friendly umbra, garou having to seek mates outside the Nation, etc. the game-lines are starting to become a BIT too similar in ways that aren't helpful.

                For example, one thing in Forsaken that I think would be good would be the loss of the Curse. It is crystal clear for me that most writers and players REALLY want to have their characters hold regular jobs. Which is near impossible in core WtA. That is a change that would be long term helpful.


                My gallery.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post


                  When I say it is too much like Forsaken, I mean it is losing elements that make Forsaken and Apocalypse different games. If we lose lupus, friendly umbra, garou having to seek mates outside the Nation, etc. the game-lines are starting to become a BIT too similar in ways that aren't helpful.

                  For example, one thing in Forsaken that I think would be good would be the loss of the Curse. It is crystal clear for me that most writers and players REALLY want to have their characters hold regular jobs. Which is near impossible in core WtA. That is a change that would be long term helpful.
                  It's less I'm saying you're wrong on that assessment and more I think the motivation has far more to do with looking at why design decisions were made and going, "Yeah that is a good idea." Even as someone who is extremely cautious right now about Paradox I don't think the changes are for sus reasons. So It's not really about making the games similar as it is about utilizing good ideas. Also I cannot emphasize enough to anyone in the thread not familiar with Forsaken, the cosmologies of WoD and CofD are so vastly different that I'd say saying the games are becoming more similar is surface level at best.


                  Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post

                    It's less I'm saying you're wrong on that assessment and more I think the motivation has far more to do with looking at why design decisions were made and going, "Yeah that is a good idea." Even as someone who is extremely cautious right now about Paradox I don't think the changes are for sus reasons. So It's not really about making the games similar as it is about utilizing good ideas. Also I cannot emphasize enough to anyone in the thread not familiar with Forsaken, the cosmologies of WoD and CofD are so vastly different that I'd say saying the games are becoming more similar is surface level at best.
                    I don't think the changes are for sus reasons, I can totally see why they went where they went.

                    But I would say the changes are not surface level even with different cosmologies. The umbra for the garou is a lifeline, it is extremely important to the whole garou society that they have safe access to the umbra. The concept of Caerns relies on the umbra being something friendly. If the umbra is hostile, then the trips to it are very close to how uratha deal with them. As in, high risk.

                    Just that change alone makes the game play extremely differently from typical WtA.

                    My worry is that what made both Forsaken and WtA stand out from one is taken away. Garou are blessed, they are chosen, they are the warriors of Gaia with a global society. Uratha are eking out a living in small groups and everything hates them. W5 has the garou be hated by the umbra, the young garou trying to reclaim past glory and their society not having the need to breed with humans/wolves anymore.

                    When WoD20th was released, it benefitted from the CofD mentality of not being so strict with world building. It could throw new ideas in without changing the core of the games. W5 feels more like trying to take the elements of Forsaken that made it be its own game and transplant them to WtA. And while some are things that needed to change (tribe names, metis,etc.) some are actively removing elements that WtA relies on.


                    My gallery.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                      I don't think the changes are for sus reasons, I can totally see why they went where they went.

                      But I would say the changes are not surface level even with different cosmologies. The umbra for the garou is a lifeline, it is extremely important to the whole garou society that they have safe access to the umbra. The concept of Caerns relies on the umbra being something friendly. If the umbra is hostile, then the trips to it are very close to how uratha deal with them. As in, high risk.

                      Just that change alone makes the game play extremely differently from typical WtA.

                      My worry is that what made both Forsaken and WtA stand out from one is taken away. Garou are blessed, they are chosen, they are the warriors of Gaia with a global society. Uratha are eking out a living in small groups and everything hates them. W5 has the garou be hated by the umbra, the young garou trying to reclaim past glory and their society not having the need to breed with humans/wolves anymore.

                      When WoD20th was released, it benefitted from the CofD mentality of not being so strict with world building. It could throw new ideas in without changing the core of the games. W5 feels more like trying to take the elements of Forsaken that made it be its own game and transplant them to WtA. And while some are things that needed to change (tribe names, metis,etc.) some are actively removing elements that WtA relies on.

                      The things you mentioned are quite literally surface level.


                      Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                      • #12
                        Ultimately we don't have enough information to know how surface level these changes are going to be.

                        The Umbra isn't exactly friendly in WtA already. It's supposed to be a dangerous place. The Penumbra is full of unfriendly spirits; esp. in cities. The Realms all follow strange rules based on what they represent. Moonbridges can get attacked by raiding spirits. Etc. Highlighting this a bit more might feel more surface level like Forsaken, but it wouldn't really be a meaningful change.

                        However, the Garou have an ancient pact with Gaian and "neutral" spirits that means there's a whole section of spirits they have a default good relation with. The Umbra around a Caern is so friendly because the Garou do a lot of work to cultivate Caerns as places where the spirits most friendly to them are dominant. If the line about Caerns being less connected to the spirit world (whatever that means... Caerns are literally a place were there's a hole in the wall between worlds) means that pact is gone, and the Gaian spirits are now hostile to Garou that don't stick to the flesh world... that's a very deep change, and one towards Forsaken since it means even "friendly" spirit dealings get more brutal than mystical.

                        The only thing that's undeniably good is the first point in the list. Everything else comes with massive caveats regarding execution.

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                        • #13
                          Zeal tribe? Children of Gaia I bet. For me it's all disappointing. Like wrong turn. I feel like someone hammered my head. with some heavy thing.

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                          • #14
                            One of the reasons given for "Garou shall not mate with garou" and the fact that it predates the birth if the first metis, was that Gaia/Luna/prehistoric Garou (or whoever came up with the Litany tenets) thought that if the garou would procreate with each other they would loose focus on their human and wolf relatives. And, while I find it okay, that Metis are gone as a concept, I would like to seem them replaces by a "garou won't get children from sex with other garou" - and make sexual contact between garou and human/wolf not obsolete...

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                            • #15
                              First Ronin was first metis. What with Perfect metis. They would burry the myths and legends of game.

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