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  • #16
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    The only thing that's undeniably good is the first point in the list. Everything else comes with massive caveats regarding execution.
    Yeah pretty much. The Tribes being overhauled to be tied to specific geographic areas and real world cultures is fine and I honestly think is something long overdue. For some Tribes it never really mattered but others had the annoying trait of demanding PCs be of a certain ethnic group or from a certain area.

    But everything else is at best questionable until we see how it is executed and at worst, a massive retcon of a long existing setting for questionable reasons.

    Years ago I had a high school friend was Metis and we did play some WtA. He wasn't crazy about the name for two reasons. First it's the exact opposite of what the name Metis meant and just didn't make sense to him (or me for that matter). And second, he didn't like the vaguely incestous undertones of the breed in Garou society sharing the name of his people. Which yeah, I can see how bad that would look. But all that required was a simple name change of the Breed. I don't think anyone would complain if they completely retconned the Metis breed name to a fake name.

    But getting rid of the Breed or more specific the deformities and infertility of them is a bad idea as if the Garou can breed with each other just fine, why do they need humans? Why didn't they just wipe them out eons ago? And why would Garou society interact with Human society if they don't need humans to continue their own race? Why wouldn't most of Garou society be living as those off the grid survivalist types out in the wilderness?


    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
      First Ronin was first metis. What with Perfect metis. They would burry the myths and legends of game.
      Only if the retcon Metis out of the game. If they say, there haven't been new Metis born since the year 2000 or so, the Metis would be removed as a PC option and that is okay.
      If the go the "Children of Osiris" way - and each metis is turned into a homid or lupus breed by Luna, because she is crazy, that's fine, too....

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      • #18
        That would be blessing for every metis.

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        • #19
          Beyond the name change, there's lots of options for the Garou-born (hell, that phrase is already something to use instead!) that get rid of the issues. The Kitsune, for example, go in largely the opposite direction. The Shinju aren't stigmatized, if anything the opposite, but each of their parents has a 50/50 chance of dying from it. Plenty of a good reason to not just have Kitsune mate with other Kitsune on that alone. Most of the Fera are either incapable of making a changer-changer baby (ex: Corax), or have a far less problematic place in their culture for them. It's not like the concept is beyond repair.

          Fixing it is still going to be a major retcon in some fashion, but I can't see it being less disruptive than just taking them completely out of the game (and Litany).

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          • #20
            Two native american cultural advisors on the team-
            This is good....now whether they listen and implement anything they say is another thing.
            Tribes as less tied to geography and culture and more to concept
            This is a tightrope, by Revised the only tribe still tied to 'one' culture was Little Brother, all the rest had some historical roots in certain cultures but were spread far and wide across the world.
            Focus on younger werewolves trying to reclaim what was lost

            So basically WtA then?
            World is fucked up horribly but not post apocalyptic

            Looking out the window this is true.....but I have a feeling in this context this means an excess of edge and very little meat.
            Umbra as a hostile place, caerns cut off from the spirit world

            Fuck off! The Umbra was already plenty hostile.....we do not need Avatar Storm/Hisil bullshit.
            haglust (spelling?) -> opposite to Harano, hysterical zeal, embodied by a new antagonist tribe that may or may not be right

            Another metamorphic plague but emotional? Cos that sucked the first 3 times it was mentioned.....but now it applies to all Garou, I nominate this as the rule everyone forgets was in the book.
            Focus on renown as something that empowers the Garou

            ? Ok.....uneccessary change for uneccessary change sake but ok....kinda leans a little hard on meritocracy for my taste but fine. People recognising your deeds makes you spiritually stronger?

            Getting rid of Metis and Pure Breed

            Not too fussed though for fucks sake make it a retcon and not some convuluted metaplot bullshit. I've had some great Crinos-Born characters over the years but I can see why. Pure Breed can just be renamed to better fit what it actually represents in terms of Patron recognition.

            No more Garou Shall not Mate with Garou

            This will also need to be a retcon and the impact on what Garou society looks like will need to be examined properly.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              One of the reasons given for "Garou shall not mate with garou" and the fact that it predates the birth if the first metis, was that Gaia/Luna/prehistoric Garou (or whoever came up with the Litany tenets) thought that if the garou would procreate with each other they would loose focus on their human and wolf relatives. And, while I find it okay, that Metis are gone as a concept, I would like to seem them replaces by a "garou won't get children from sex with other garou" - and make sexual contact between garou and human/wolf not obsolete...
              Exactly, why even have kinfolk at this point? If we lose kinfolk most of Garou society breaks down as kinfolk are more numerous, work jobs to support the Garou, insert themselves into human society to try to help the Gaian cause, and are there to remind the Garou what is worth fighting for.


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              • #22
                I could actually see the Garou not always being with other Garou in relationships, because the phrase "you can't help who you fall in love with" can cut in a number of ways; some of them are just going to want to be with otherwise normal humans or wolves, or humans or wolves born to other Garou, simply because they ended up meeting and clicking. Besides, the Nagah manage to keep kin lines even when they can be with each other without consequence, with a blessed Nagah-born (ahi) happening only once in a mother's lifetime and all other children being of the mother's breed.

                But some packs are likely to become more like wolf packs, particularly where the Red Talons are concerned. I mean, assuming that they didn't get booted for being hard cases and all. If it's a retcon, that may be the prior core of Garou society. Would go a long way toward educating readers about how wolves actually are, if nothing else.

                Pure Breed thoughts: This one is kind of a bit of egg on my face, I don't know if anyone else feels that way. PB should have been renamed Heroic Lineage in W20. I'm feeling rather dumb for not having advocated for that, since I was there pulling for changes about ten years ago when it was being written. Seems like it would have been an easy change, but perhaps I just forgot where my head was at the time.

                Renown: It already got into the effects of more Gifts than it probably should have in W20, especially ones that served as duplicated effects for Fera that don't even have the same Renown types. Not sure why it would need even more emphasis when Boli Zousizhe can use high Honor/Virtue (presumably) scores to body anyone who attacks their family or pack with Fu Xi's Honor (duplicated for the Warding Mokole in the form of Rage of the Nest Mother, which is coincidentally in the list for Zhong Long warriors).

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
                  Exactly, why even have kinfolk at this point?
                  Because W20 Kinfolk granted them more magic. They are the thin-blooded of the Garou. They might not be able to put disciplines into flasks, but maybe they can soon put Gifts into small medicine bag like tokens....

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                    I could actually see the Garou not always being with other Garou in relationships, because the phrase "you can't help who you fall in love with" can cut in a number of ways;
                    But a statistically relevant number of people find their partner in the workplace. And, unless it gets removes from the game entirely, there is the Curse.

                    Sure, today, garou can fall for a human, force them to have sex with the Animal Magnetism mechanic, and get satisfied for a while. But the Curse should prohibit this from being something that lasts. So, garou-garou relationships are the only one's that make sense, and they were the permanent friend-zone in the past, but not anymore...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                      Because W20 Kinfolk granted them more magic.
                      Huh? While K:ABA added some Rites that kin can learn and do (though are explicitly not empowered by the spirits unless a Garou gets involved), giving Kin default access to Numina was a thing back in Unsung Heroes as well. So this feels like a weird claim.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Huh? While K:ABA added some Rites that kin can learn and do (though are explicitly not empowered by the spirits unless a Garou gets involved), giving Kin default access to Numina was a thing back in Unsung Heroes as well. So this feels like a weird claim.
                        It also had kinfolk variants of tribal Gifts and in general to tone and general outlook of the passages I read (which were those dealing with the Gifts primarily) seemed to indicate that powers of these kinds were supposed to be more common among Kinfolk, than it was in Unsung Heroes. Could be my interpretation of what I read, but if W20 had a statement like "Roger Delay is an Athro and has about 15 or so Gifts, imagine what a Kinfolk would need to accomplish to get one. Never think about a second." then I missed it. Instead of some original Kinfolk Gifts with powers that, in my opinion, made sense, they went the modified tribal Gift way - which was recycling for some parts. Kind of annoying, given the fact that authors often complain about word count restrictions...

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                        • #27
                          I've always felt that one of the core themes of Werewolf was family.
                          • The found family - the pack, the totem
                          • The family by blood - someone that may have fathered you in a tryst, a family group that you don't gel with or the caring family that knows your darkest secret
                          • The spirits that have followed your family and that your family has followed through their lives, and the strange and infinitely complex world that reaffirms and proves your Faith
                          • The ancestors themselves who are literal embodiment of legend and justification of living a "good" Garou life
                          • The responsibility and expectations of your extended family - kinfolk or the tribe
                          • Living up to the legend and renown of the parents you have never met and whose legend is death or the fact that they don't see you as good enough or maybe even you don't see them as good enough?
                          • Living up to the legend of your parentage and being judged for their actions and choices while trying to make your own
                          It's a strange interaction of Pure Breed, Ancestors and Renown, but it's actually something that enriched Werewolf and created a lot of quality storytelling. Pure Breed as it stands is not really required, but a larger interaction of who came before you and whose deeds you need to live up to or atone for is something that's deeply ingrained into Werewolf. Heroic Lineage could work here quite well.

                          Outside that the whole disconnection of the tribes from the real-world cultures seems a bit reactionary and based on a lot of the early missteps and decisions made in early Werewolf. Revised and W20 made great strides to represent how the Tribes are so much more than the cultures that inspired them, how they exist all over the world and have long blended with many cultures and societies. I can see there being a need to sand down the rough points further and working on the Pure Tribes, but actually dropping the geographical and ethnographic distinctions will do them no favors. One of the best things that Werewolf has taught me is that Shifters adapt to the local culture and that I should learn more about the world, its history and its culture to make things work.

                          However, I don't feel that this is something nuWW is into. A lot of their choices seem to exist for either simplicity or cheap thrills, without actually exploring the consequences of their choices on the world. A world where the young are separated from the old, where there is no legacy to protect or overcome, and where the spirit world is no longer a part of who you are is not the kind of Werewolf that draws me in.


                          What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                          • #28
                            Very, very well said, Asmodai. I think you hit the nail right on the head.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                              But a statistically relevant number of people find their partner in the workplace. And, unless it gets removes from the game entirely, there is the Curse.
                              Neither of these rule out Kin. The default status of every caern is "doesn't have enough Garou to get everything done", so a number of Kin are likely going to be helping out in some capacity under Garou supervision. Kin are also unaffected by the Curse.

                              Sure, today, garou can fall for a human, force them to have sex with the Animal Magnetism mechanic, and get satisfied for a while.
                              Not even remotely what I was going for. Also, I hope that Animal Magnetism gets reduced and simplified into adding PU to seduction and partying rolls, because having a whole system for it seem extra.

                              But the Curse should prohibit this from being something that lasts. So, garou-garou relationships are the only one's that make sense, and they were the permanent friend-zone in the past, but not anymore...
                              The Curse only kicks in if Rage is higher than the human's Willpower, and there could conceivably be ways around even that, if you dump enough into social traits.

                              Besides, between Garou being sparse and various dimensions of pack, sept, and tribe politics, getting hitched to another werewolf could come with a lot of baggage that would make some hesitate to go through with it. Marrying into the Shadow Lords in particular is liable to ensure that your life is perpetually complicated, and gets more and more complicated each passing day. Proudly proclaiming that you're with one of the Bone Gnawer rabble is courageous and heartfelt, but could also cost support from snooty septs of mostly other tribes. There's a pretty interesting new territory to navigate there, as long as you don't immediately dismiss the concept as "yiff in hell!", because even with the first tenet out of the way and no auto-disabled Garou-Garou kids, it's not going to be a simple matter. Just cross your fingers and hope that the Black Furies don't become Werewolf Drow.

                              Response to Other Posts, Topic Change:

                              As to the removal of metis as a whole, they've had the opportunity to do interesting things with it, and make insightful commentary. But they also mostly end up as props to show how bad Garou are, and there may need to be a subtler approach to showing how messed up Garou society is, which doesn't involve authors of splatbooks making dad jokes about the similarity in spelling between the breed and an ethnic group in Canada (see the 2nd edition Silver Fangs TB for that one), or the Thrall of the Wyrm turning a character into a sex criminal just 'cause. And if you ask, "Hey, Saur, aren't you disabled/chronically ill from birth? Do you want to keep the option to explore that open?" the only thing I can say is that I'm rather tired with that dimension of W:tA, and don't want to have to live through being dismissed for trying to explain the difference between my existence and others' more than once. Once was honestly alienating enough.

                              (I never had a thyroid, for reference.)

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                              • #30
                                Also.... removing them doesn't remove the option to play Garou with disabilities or even supernatural deformities. There are Flaws for those already. We don't need disabilities attached to a Breed to be able to explore them if we want to.

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