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After much speculation: some new W5 official information

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  • After much speculation: some new W5 official information

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2L9Cj3VMHzw

    There you go:

    -11 playable tribes in the crb
    -2 tribes who are no more part of the litany. One because it feels like the Garou nation was not doing it right (Stargazers?) and another who fell to its own rage born out of desperation (Red Talons?)
    -A new condition opposite to harano
    -The umbra becoming much more hostile to werewolves
    -No more metis
    -The notion that the apocalypse has POSSIBLY come and gone and we are now living in a post apocalyptic world… and it’s not what we expected
    -A stronger focus on renown as the core concept of Werewolf

    Thoughts? Opinions? Unbridled rage? Gloomy melancholy?

  • #2
    the only thing I mildly find intresting is the hey maybe we are post -apoc

    I think I could run with that honestly


    .

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    • #3
      This is already being discussed in other threads, but my basic reaction:

      They have met my exceedingly low expectations for what I thought W5 would look like. I've been waiting to see if W5 can recover from the sloppy roll out of V5 and make WoD 5e something appealing to me. This all rather confirms that's never going to happen.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        This is already being discussed in other threads, but my basic reaction:

        They have met my exceedingly low expectations for what I thought W5 would look like. I've been waiting to see if W5 can recover from the sloppy roll out of V5 and make WoD 5e something appealing to me. This all rather confirms that's never going to happen.
        What is that you find so underwhelming, exactly?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Haquim View Post

          What is that you find so underwhelming, exactly?
          I can't speak for Heavy Arms but everything I'm hearing about it points towards a declawing and infantilization of the Garou.
          They seem to be trying to remove everything "problematic" about the setting like the Metis or the treatment of Kinfolk and all that will lead to is a less multifaceted universe.

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          • #6
            They are also cutting out the Umbra by making it super hostile and dangerous by default. It's half the setting for crying out loud.

            Another thing that worried me in the stream was referring to gifts being powered by renown and your relationship to spirits. Gifts are just that, gifts. A spirit imbues part of a Garou's own spirit with its blessing and the power the Garou gains is now a permanent part of them.

            You can entreat a spirit for a gift and your rank and renown helps determine how likely the spirit is to choose to help you. This sounds like renown is the resource powering gifts or that you ask a spirit each time to do something which shows a fundamental lack of familiarity or understanding of the old lore and system.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Lunar Falcon View Post
              They are also cutting out the Umbra by making it super hostile and dangerous by default. It's half the setting for crying out loud.
              Half the setting, a third of the Breeds, and at least some portions of the Litany.

              They really took a chainsaw to the setting.

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              • #8
                Yeah, after 30 years in the fandom I'm gonna punch out. This and the other stuff Justin said shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the themes and core spirit of WtA. Which is fair enough as Justin has had bugger all to do with WtA over the years and the 3? pieces of writing he's done for it emphasise the schlockier and more puerile outer concepts at the expense of the core values of spirituality, dedication and found-family.

                We absolutely do not need an Avatar Storm/Hisil mash up, anyone whose familiar with the material knows that the Umbra is hostile to Garou and does not need 'cranking to 11'.

                Removing Crinos-Born? I can live with it but it does mean a massive retcon of large swathes of history and metaplot or they could do another kludgy metaplot pull like most of the changes in V5.

                The changes to the way renown function just strike me as more change for change sake, Haglust as the opposite of Harano I don't really care about as I think it will be used as often as Harano is in the average campaign which is to say never unless its a plot point for a particular PC or NPC another change for the sake of change.

                Dumping tribes from the nation was shit when it was done to the Stargazers, its still shit. This is the kind of thing PCs should have a hand in trying to prevent not another ' shit happened off-screen here are the consequences, sucks to be you.'.

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                • #9
                  I'll add something different:

                  Going way back to when the nWW team was talking about their future plans, a bunch of us felt that what they really wanted to make was the CofD, but they wanted the brand recognition of the WoD. Martin basically admitted as much.

                  V5 haphazardly grabbed from VtR, and some other games, and tried to smash it all together with VtM. I tried to wait and see. The playtests kept demonstrating that they weren't going to make the balancing act work in a fashion I'd like. Then V5 dropped and confirmed it. And then the V5 supplements continued to disappoint.

                  W5 seems to repeating all of the same mistakes. Instead of trying to make a WtA for the 2020s, they're grabbing from Forsaken, and the BNS MET WtA book, and the I-already-don't-like-it V5. So what reason do I have to believe W5 is going to fix any of the development processes that created the V5 I don't want?

                  What was announced that will actually appeal to me when I can play Forsaken or W20 instead?

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                  • #10
                    That's the boat I am in as a WoD vet turned CofD fan. Between what is happening with book approvals, the early White Wolf mishaps and the V5 launch. There's just nothing to convince me to buy the books when I have CofD and a lot to convince me to not do so.

                    On the specific W5 front, I really hope it's not really called Haglust and the Umbra thing just made me think, "Yes but what about second ̶b̶r̶e̶a̶k̶f̶a̶s̶t̶ Avatar Storm?"
                    Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 10-14-2021, 08:50 PM.


                    Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                    • #11
                      Furthermore, I would add that part of the fun of Werewolf: The Apocalypse is the fact that the Garou adhere to an entirely different set of values from modern humanity. This cultural identity is what makes them more than just people who can turn into animals.
                      And W5 seems intent on stripping all of this from the Garou.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok, here's my 2 cents as well:

                        -11 tribes and 2 tribes becoming non playable → I'm not happy with this simply because as goofy as they often were tribes (as clans) have a special place in my memories, aside from that a lot of people complained about one tribe or the other back in the day. Stargazers (if they get the boot) went the way of the Beast Courts in Revised because at the time WW felt it could do nothing interesting with them staying in the Garou nation (and wanted to push the breeds, probably). Red Talons (again, IF they are the tribe that falls prey to Haglust, could very well be the Fenrir, Heart of the Forest has a Red Talon character while Fenrir are mistrusted... and them wanting to take action here and now, damn the consequences fits their philosopy pretty well... so it could be the Fenrir) have always been considered problematic by a lot of folks. I'm not one of them though and I happen to think that the Red Talons point of view would be extremely poignant in a "post Apocalypse" setting.
                        -Haglust → Seems possibly an interesting concept, it all depends on implementation and I have no problem with the notion that Garou's rage can get them out of their mind if they think the battle for Gaia is truly lost or is going to be lost unless they do SOMETHING ("And what should we do exactly? Something! Anything! Damn you wyrmspawn! Wraaaaagh!")
                        -The Umbra is a much scarier place → Again, depends on implementation. If it's another avatar storm then I don't like it. AS was implemented because WW decided Mages should fight for Earth and not spend all of their time in Horizon Realms. If the Umbra becoming more dangerous is meant to discourage games taking place in the spirit world then it's not a good idea imo. If it's a way to make the Umbra more challenging to PCs but it's still essential for the game then I'm open to the idea.
                        -No more metis → Again, I regret the memories but I don't feel like the metis were a defining concept of W:tA. Again, much will depend on implementation. If they just retcon the metis out of existence then it's an atrocity. If instead they recognize the metis used to exist but went extinct after the "event" in the early 2000s then I can live with this change.
                        -The Apocalypse has come and gone → This is an interesting idea that lends itself to numerous new concepts without earsing the old ones and possibly give the setting a glimmer of... hope? The fact that saving the world is not about winning a giant cosmic battle and more about rebuilding and defending what was salvaged after said battle is novel and worth exploring imo.
                        -Renown as the core concept of W:tA. I don't really have an opinion on this. Renown was always a requisite for access to stronger gifts but it wasn't always easy to get right in games (a player does moronic things but at least shows up and plays... are you really going to punish him/her?) and a better way to make it work would certainly be welcome, on the other hand I always felt W.tA was mainly about raging against injustice and doing terrible things for the greater good and I don't really want the focus of the game to shift too far away from those concepts.

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                        • #13
                          Renown is something I was hoping to see get a redo. Renown isn't well... Renown. It's bookkeeping before you actually get to do something that impresses people (your Rank challenge). The Renown charts encourage far too much farming of small bonuses, to counter all the small negatives you can build up. Outside of a few rare Gifts, you never do anything with Renown besides get enough of it to gain Rank. There's no difference mechanically between a Wisdom 1 and a Wisdom 10 character because what Rank they might qualify for. Other Garou don't know your Renown rating, and most groups don't do the work necessary to make sure there are actual deeds your character's done that others will hear about.

                          Forsaken 2e's treatment of Renown is rather appealing: Each dot of Renown is one major deed your character has accomplished, with the assumption that higher dots are only justified by bigger deeds on some level. Renown is also really important to Gifts in a rewarding way. The linked Renown trait adds to Gift usually as a dice-bonus for activation, or be being a variable (like a Gift that adds Purity extra Health for a scene). The Uratha can also do two cool Renown specific mechanics: one where the rest of the pack needs to challenge if they're really worthy of their Renown, but this is to strength the werewolf and gives them a boost to Renown related stuff (If you flare your Wisdom Brands and defend your wisdom to your pack, everyone following your advice or plans gets a +2 dice bonus to resist being swayed off your advice, and you can end the effect to get extra successes on a single Investigation, Medicine, or Occult roll), and the other is a debuff you can smack the target of your pack's current hunt based on your Auspice.

                          It's a really slick way to do what the W5 stuff is talking about.. so much so that I'm not sure if they've got something as good or better up their sleeves. I worry they're just going to lift some of this from Forsaken without thinking about how to get it to interact with WtA.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            Renown is something I was hoping to see get a redo. Renown isn't well... Renown. It's bookkeeping before you actually get to do something that impresses people (your Rank challenge). The Renown charts encourage far too much farming of small bonuses, to counter all the small negatives you can build up. Outside of a few rare Gifts, you never do anything with Renown besides get enough of it to gain Rank. There's no difference mechanically between a Wisdom 1 and a Wisdom 10 character because what Rank they might qualify for. Other Garou don't know your Renown rating, and most groups don't do the work necessary to make sure there are actual deeds your character's done that others will hear about.

                            Forsaken 2e's treatment of Renown is rather appealing: Each dot of Renown is one major deed your character has accomplished, with the assumption that higher dots are only justified by bigger deeds on some level. Renown is also really important to Gifts in a rewarding way. The linked Renown trait adds to Gift usually as a dice-bonus for activation, or be being a variable (like a Gift that adds Purity extra Health for a scene). The Uratha can also do two cool Renown specific mechanics: one where the rest of the pack needs to challenge if they're really worthy of their Renown, but this is to strength the werewolf and gives them a boost to Renown related stuff (If you flare your Wisdom Brands and defend your wisdom to your pack, everyone following your advice or plans gets a +2 dice bonus to resist being swayed off your advice, and you can end the effect to get extra successes on a single Investigation, Medicine, or Occult roll), and the other is a debuff you can smack the target of your pack's current hunt based on your Auspice.

                            It's a really slick way to do what the W5 stuff is talking about.. so much so that I'm not sure if they've got something as good or better up their sleeves. I worry they're just going to lift some of this from Forsaken without thinking about how to get it to interact with WtA.

                            They could handle it more like the central tempers in pre-C20 Land of Eight Million Dreams, where an appropriate milestone got a check mark, and ten checks increased the trait by one. Deeds of various virtues worked similarly in Weapons of the Gods, where they were a part of the process of cultivation needed to clear another power rank.

                            Or, if the emphasis is on war over the hunt, make sure that they have appropriate categories that don't overlap with Forsaken at all. It'd be a bit of a break, but you could rearrange the salient categories across the Garou and various Fera to make that happen, or just make whole new ones that aren't Purity et al.

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                            • #15
                              My thoughts:

                              - 11 tribes/no more part of litany - It doesn't matter for me which tribe will be unplayable, because cutting off one of the original tribe is painful for me, I have bad feeling that they will remove Red Talons cause they don't know what to do with them. And new tribe? Confederacy of offshoots from every tribe stricken by the new ,,plague" ? Or for example they would cut off Bone Gnawers cause it's incorrect to play a homeless man? Fenris? Children of Gaia? Which is the best tribe for any of You You like to play and love? And now it might be unplayable? Any choice is bad. No litany and law? So anarch tribes? Oh $%$#%$#%# off.

                              - The umbra becoming much more hostile to werewolves - Forsaken 3rd edition. Split the games, the theme, don't make them similar.

                              - No more metis - And here we are, 21 century, political correctness. Someone said somewhere ,,you have right to feel offended." So I'm exercising my right to be offended. Why not metis? It's a huge bow to who? I've read a lot of posts in youtube and even here from liberal people who doesn't like the idea of cutting metis from the game, cause it's a strong part of it like the litany. It's FAR more better to forbid playing them then retconing or ereasing their existance. If the world is in miserable state as they said in video why would suddenly Luna or Gaia or other power make them disappear. In truly shitty world their number would rise, garou need troops, And what with Dancers ,,famous" with their metis? Their cannon fodder. No metis at all? Funny. Very.

                              - Pure Breed - another politcal incorrectness? All right change the name but don't take away garou lineage, a thing they were proud off. Heroic Lineage or something similar - Heavy Arms mentione that earlier is good example.

                              - Renown and Gifts. If the creators doesn't want to continue renown mechanics from earlier editions please make it from the scratch, new one, but don't copy it from Forsaken, it's different game, different werewolf.


                              And yes I will buy it cause it's my first and most beloved game. Even if the game will be full of off-putting ideas. I'm from concrete fandom fan base.

                              Last edited by werewolf43; 10-15-2021, 02:39 AM.

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