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After much speculation: some new W5 official information

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  • #16
    Cannibalization of Forsaken, which now seems to be' only a corpse from where WtA can feed.

    Renown gifts, hostile umbra, and so on.

    Very sad. Forsaken is nice because its not apocalypse especially 2nd ed.
    Now they could be' really closer.

    Metis out and "fuck other werewolves is ok" because "werewolves in 2021 have other things to worry about"?
    MASSIVE blow to the social structure and to one of the main dramma of the whole setting.

    The fact that a game is horror and mature doesnt mean it cant be' inclusive.


    Mixed feelings about more multicultural tribes and remove of pure breed.

    I didnt like what I heard .


    -'' We are the unsullied.
    We are the inheritors.
    We are the Pure ''-

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    • #17
      Some Breed, like Nuwisha, had the Renown worked into Gifts, like for example the length an effect lasted was tied to one specific Renown value. I found that okay and Garou could have that, too.

      With the removal of Pure Breed I find it okay if Renown plays a greater role in social interaction. And with the CoD-Attributes, Resolve and Composure, I can see Renown as a Pure Breed Like bonus when dealing in contested rolls with other supernaturals or just garou. Something like that...

      Like I said, I would like an overhaul of the mechanics very much, but the I'm opposed to Setting Changes for the most part. So, I hope the new mechanics are as Setting agnostic as possible.

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      • #18
        The tricky part is trying to figure out who this is designed to appeal to, It's quite reductionist in it's outlook and doesnt really enhance the game in any discernable ways. New players won't really benifit from it and it's just going to annoy established player were it might even escalate to fandom splits ala v5 vs v20. Cui Bono? as they say.

        Also I'm slightly bemused at the removal of metis as though it was a tabboo subject, the subtext of metis was incest closed breeding genetic issues and that's genrally tabboo unless i missed that contigency at the last pride march I attended. Love who you love by all means but railing your mother is supremely fucked up.
        Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-15-2021, 09:27 AM.

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        • #19
          I think the big problems (besides the name) are the levels of abuse heaped (physical, social, and spiritual) on a child who's only crime was being born is a pretty nasty subject to have a one of the three default Breed's whole deal. As WtA proved with the other Fera, there are a lot of ways to handle the concept that doesn't push on something quite so sensitive. The whole "spiritual incest" aspect is also not great... esp. with how common it seems to be.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            I think the big problems (besides the name) are the levels of abuse heaped (physical, social, and spiritual) on a child who's only crime was being born is a pretty nasty subject to have a one of the three default Breed's whole deal. As WtA proved with the other Fera, there are a lot of ways to handle the concept that doesn't push on something quite so sensitive. The whole "spiritual incest" aspect is also not great... esp. with how common it seems to be.
            My experience with playing and hosting Werewolf is that the players who made Metis characters were the same people who created a Thin Blood when playing Vampire.

            They wanted to experience that social rejection to then rise above it and prove the naysayers wrong But now they don't even want players to think about how the circunstances of their birth might affect their station making the Garou Nation a social utopia that has never existed among humanity.
            This is just babyproofing Werewolf

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            • #21
              Metis issue - It could be also escape. Why? In Vampire they cut a lot of disciplines and combined some of them. Werewolf gift list seems to be larger - > breed , auspice, tribe and next from for example book of the city and tribebooks. Abandoning metis makes the list shorter.
              And maby what I'm saying doesn't have any sense cause they will rebuild gift system.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                My experience with playing and hosting Werewolf is that the players who made Metis characters were the same people who created a Thin Blood when playing Vampire.

                They wanted to experience that social rejection to then rise above it and prove the naysayers wrong But now they don't even want players to think about how the circunstances of their birth might affect their station making the Garou Nation a social utopia that has never existed among humanity.
                This is just babyproofing Werewolf
                I'd say it is more making sure those who are disabled not having to deal with ableism during their fun time. I'm disabled and I like playing crinos-born, but I also have not been subjected to abuse over my disability.

                Aside from that, the inspirations for the breed are Quasimodo, Basket Case, Bat Boy from the Goonies, etc. Someone physically malformed who is an outsider and bitter about it. That 'deformed freak in the attic' trope is no longer something tolerated.

                Also, heinrich once noted that a metis character could also make other players uncomfortable, as they did not want to heap on abuse to a disabled person.

                Basically, I don't feel it is babyproofing as much as just addressing something that was once okay but no longer is because we are more aware of having disabled players around.

                Mind, I rather not have the breed removed, but I understand why.
                Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 10-15-2021, 08:07 AM.


                My gallery.

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                • #23
                  In my opinion garou at young age before first change are in similar position.

                  Homid are often too agressive, weird, psychotic or worse (like long forgoten line of Dancers). In Book of Weaver, DNA section are some ideas how they would end, vivisected, objects of experiments, their abillity to shapeshift rejected by drugs, chemicals and other things.

                  Lupus are sometimes abandoned after first change. Not everyone are found by garou. Some of them are lost, rejected by family pack.

                  Metis sometimes have better start in matter of understanding who he is. Often their parents are to blame, not everyone treat metis as punchbag. Children of Gaia and Furies care about them, childrens of Unicorn look at them as equals.

                  As I remember Fianna hate them the most, but overall revised tribebooks improved their position. Shadow Lords (one of the most ruthless garou) accepted them and granted with important tasks - Lazarite movement.

                  Shame that creators see only one side of the coin - uncomfortable player character, offending to players and similar ideas, but not - interesting character, a character with a goal and soul, more difficult to play but more satisfying.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                    I'd say it is more making sure those who are disabled not having to deal with ableism during their fun time. I'm disabled and I like playing crinos-born, but I also have not been subjected to abuse over my disability.

                    Aside from that, the inspirations for the breed are Quasimodo, Basket Case, Bat Boy from the Goonies, etc. Someone physically malformed who is an outsider and bitter about it. That 'deformed freak in the attic' trope is no longer something tolerated.

                    Also, heinrich once noted that a metis character could also make other players uncomfortable, as they did not want to heap on abuse to a disabled person.

                    Basically, I don't feel it is babyproofing as much as just addressing something that was once okay but no longer is because we are more aware of having disabled players around.

                    Mind, I rather not have the breed removed, but I understand why.
                    Naturallt, we can all agree that discrimination against the disabled is absolutely unnaceptable but at the same time we should acknowledge that the Garou Nation is not a particularly pleasant society to be born to. They are an hidebound people with archaic notions about things humans take for granted like sexual freedom. Even the most privileged members of this society are likely to end their days with a fomori's claws in their guts.

                    We shouldn't glorify the Garou Nation but if we remove everything that can be unconfortable about it, we are gutting a good portion of the setting and removing fodder for stories. If everything that culturally makes the Garou the Garou, are they all that different from werewolves from a supernatural teen drama?

                    For instance, obviously no one believes that it's good and proper for Silver Fang kinfolk to have arranged marriages so as to protect their purity and increase the chances of producing more Garou. But that makes for good stories.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                      We shouldn't glorify the Garou Nation but if we remove everything that can be unconfortable about it, we are gutting a good portion of the setting and removing fodder for stories. If everything that culturally makes the Garou the Garou, are they all that different from werewolves from a supernatural teen drama?
                      Here's the thing; Is the setting's cohesion more important than making sure a player in your group is not going to have flashbacks to their IRL abuse? I think the player's comfort is more important than being 1:1 with the book.

                      Different people have different limits, and removing crinos-born is making sure a very common source of trauma is avoided.


                      My gallery.

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                      • #26
                        This drivel about Gaia and the Apocalypse sounds like something straight out of Black Spiral Dancer propaganda. Looks like I'm skipping this edition.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                          Here's the thing; Is the setting's cohesion more important than making sure a player in your group is not going to have flashbacks to their IRL abuse? I think the player's comfort is more important than being 1:1 with the book.

                          Different people have different limits, and removing crinos-born is making sure a very common source of trauma is avoided.
                          A player's comfort should always take priority within the context of that group. But Werewolf: The Apocalypse is not meant for just one group. How much darknes are we willing to remove from the "World of Darkness" before all we are left with are surface elements? Any children's cartoon can tell us how pollution is bad.

                          And it's not just about cohesion but quality. Judging by this particular interview, a great number of the core concept and themes of Werewolf are being axed including, but not limited to, the relationship between Tribe, Garou, Ancestors and the Spirit World itself.

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                          • #28
                            see it's already beginning, we're already seeing divides on decisions as niche as incest baby bullying making it okay to sanitise a major plot point . Give it a year and the split will be incredably bitter.....again.

                            Then again I'm okay with the metis tabboo thing because it discourages furry fetish shit so maybe I'm guilty of niche thinking as well.
                            Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-15-2021, 09:43 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                              A player's comfort should always take priority within the context of that group. But Werewolf: The Apocalypse is not meant for just one group. How much darknes are we willing to remove from the "World of Darkness" before all we are left with are surface elements? Any children's cartoon can tell us how pollution is bad.

                              And it's not just about cohesion but quality. Judging by this particular interview, a great number of the core concept and themes of Werewolf are being axed including, but not limited to, the relationship between Tribe, Garou, Ancestors and the Spirit World itself.
                              For me, this is one darkness I can accept going. However, I do agree with others that there ARE some very bad choices present, even in the no-crinos-born idea. For one, BSDs losing basically the one thing that kept their numbers (somewhat) at check.

                              And the VERY likely loss of lupus. If crinos-born are an issue, I've seen far more people throw HUGE fits over the very existence of lupus.

                              Basically, I'm NOT okay with taking so much of the setting away. Its just that crinos-born are something I could see changed for a good reason.


                              My gallery.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                                For me, this is one darkness I can accept going. However, I do agree with others that there ARE some very bad choices present, even in the no-crinos-born idea. For one, BSDs losing basically the one thing that kept their numbers (somewhat) at check.

                                And the VERY likely loss of lupus. If crinos-born are an issue, I've seen far more people throw HUGE fits over the very existence of lupus.

                                Basically, I'm NOT okay with taking so much of the setting away. Its just that crinos-born are something I could see changed for a good reason.
                                That's fair. Personally, I'm not fond of it and see it as evidence of a general sanitization of the setting.

                                Couldn't we just have Anarch Werewolves who have forsaken the Litany instead of rewriting Garou biology which seems to be what's implied by the absence of both Metis and the removal of the "Garou shall not mate with Garou" tenet from the Litany?

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