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  • #31
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
    Couldn't we just have Anarch Werewolves who have forsaken the Litany instead of rewriting Garou biology which seems to be what's implied by the absence of both Metis and the removal of the "Garou shall not mate with Garou" tenet from the Litany?
    I'd LOVE if there was a more active ronin faction/factions. Because that would fit the setting and give players who don't want to play the Garou Nation something to do.


    My gallery.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      I'll add something different:

      Going way back to when the nWW team was talking about their future plans, a bunch of us felt that what they really wanted to make was the CofD, but they wanted the brand recognition of the WoD. Martin basically admitted as much.

      V5 haphazardly grabbed from VtR, and some other games, and tried to smash it all together with VtM. I tried to wait and see. The playtests kept demonstrating that they weren't going to make the balancing act work in a fashion I'd like. Then V5 dropped and confirmed it. And then the V5 supplements continued to disappoint.

      W5 seems to repeating all of the same mistakes. Instead of trying to make a WtA for the 2020s, they're grabbing from Forsaken, and the BNS MET WtA book, and the I-already-don't-like-it V5. So what reason do I have to believe W5 is going to fix any of the development processes that created the V5 I don't want?

      What was announced that will actually appeal to me when I can play Forsaken or W20 instead?

      Correction: Bits of Forsaken that Forsaken is moving away from.

      A werewolf plus a werewolf in 2E is a guaranteed wolfblood, nothing more or less, spirits may resent being disallowed into the mortal world but they recognize balance is generally better for most of them and they scurry out of the way when the Uratha are trying to get rid of a Wound, and while they generally stick to their own beats they happily coordinate with others if they realize it's a bigger problem than the pack's territory.

      So this comes off as a grognard for CofD 1E writing CWoD.


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      • #33
        I think the multicultral things about tribes could be interesting.
        A pack of siberian fianna worshipping Stag in form of an Elk god of the hunt.
        A pack of wendigo on the forzen peaks of the alps worshipping the Wildman as Wendigo.
        A commando of Fenris from kazakhstan invoking the Tanri in his form of Wolf , like their brethren in scandinavia do with Fenris.

        Could be interesting to see how various players can see the tribes more as concept than ethno-cultural sects.
        I suppose the tribes definitely will get nicknames.

        But a part of me knows that all of this comes from Forsaken, and it makes me a little bit sad.


        -'' We are the unsullied.
        We are the inheritors.
        We are the Pure ''-

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        • #34
          Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
          A player's comfort should always take priority within the context of that group. But Werewolf: The Apocalypse is not meant for just one group. How much darknes are we willing to remove from the "World of Darkness" before all we are left with are surface elements? Any children's cartoon can tell us how pollution is bad.

          And it's not just about cohesion but quality. Judging by this particular interview, a great number of the core concept and themes of Werewolf are being axed including, but not limited to, the relationship between Tribe, Garou, Ancestors and the Spirit World itself.
          I have to agree with this. It seems like everyone except for the folks at Onyx Path don't seem to understand the World of Darkness and are either turn it into the World of Slight Twilight or Chronicles of Darkness: World of Darkness Edition.

          The World of Darkness was always meant to be a darker, worse version of our world. None of the factions we play in are meant to be Paragons of Virtue but flawed institutions that often times are as much a cause of their problems as outside forces are. Yet often times we want to fight for these flawed institutions, to correct their flaws and show them a better way of doing things because despite their flaws these institutions call to us in their own ways.

          Yeah, there's a lot of problems with the Garou Nation but that's part of the point. Many of the Garou's problems were born out of their own mistakes, flaws and failings. Trying to just toss out some of those flaws is potentially detrimental to the line and it's themes.

          Between the recent W5 and H5 news as well as the stuff coming out about Bloodlines 2, I've lost much of my faith WoD products not being handled by OPP. And I think the most frustrating is that it feels like people running the brand aren't listening to us. It feels like we're screaming at the wind and if we're lucky one or two things we're yelling might be heard and they might consider what we've said. It's so frustrating and disheartening.

          Honestly at this point I don't expect to be buying 5E products unless they're OPP products or addons from OPP Kickstarters.


          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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          • #35
            It occurs to me that a constant pressure to modify everything into the context of period American insectionalist criteria is not only going be incredibly difficult to produce and still be compelling with broad appeal but is probably going to result in increasingly drastic backslashes at not only contested points of intersectional praxis but also out of raw frustration and exasperation at attempting to have fun in a hyper sanitised way with a layer of strong social ettitequte on top?
            Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-15-2021, 12:24 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
              It occurs to me that a constant pressure to modify everything into the context of period American insectionalist criteria is not only going be incredibly difficult to produce and still be compelling with broad appeal but is probably going to result in increasingly drastic backslashes at not only contested points of intersectional praxis but also out of raw frustration and exasperation at attempting to have fun in a hyper sanitised way with a layer of strong social ettitequte on top?
              I kind of miss the old 1st and 2nd edition days of free creativity and gonzo craziness. Sure, there were plenty of silly things that came out then, including historical or cultural inaccuracies, inconsistencies, or insulting stereotypes - but a lot of cool stuff came out then. The bad stuff could easily be discarded, or included if you like it, and we all know that geeks love having things to complain about.

              Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
              That's fair. Personally, I'm not fond of it and see it as evidence of a general sanitization of the setting.

              Couldn't we just have Anarch Werewolves who have forsaken the Litany instead of rewriting Garou biology which seems to be what's implied by the absence of both Metis and the removal of the "Garou shall not mate with Garou" tenet from the Litany?
              Some kind of "Anarch" movement within the Garou nation sounds like a great idea to me. Instead of making every Garou faction super woke and "tolerant" it would be far better to acknowledge how incredibly intolerant and rigid Garou society is and to emphasize that in combination with a focus on a younger generation of Garou who want to want to resist the hyper-conservative elders.

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              • #37
                Onyx Path upcoming Apocalyptic records have brilliant ideas so far, like AkatsukiLeder13 wrote fanbase ideas are unfamiliar to W5 designers. So far I enjoy W20 line very much. And so my ecpectations for W5 are.maby too high compered to OPP stuff

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

                  I kind of miss the old 1st and 2nd edition days of free creativity and gonzo craziness. Sure, there were plenty of silly things that came out then, including historical or cultural inaccuracies, inconsistencies, or insulting stereotypes - but a lot of cool stuff came out then. The bad stuff could easily be discarded, or included if you like it, and we all know that geeks love having things to complain about.



                  Some kind of "Anarch" movement within the Garou nation sounds like a great idea to me. Instead of making every Garou faction super woke and "tolerant" it would be far better to acknowledge how incredibly intolerant and rigid Garou society is and to emphasize that in combination with a focus on a younger generation of Garou who want to want to resist the hyper-conservative elders.

                  Theirs something to be said of mad bastard game design, I mean phils made career out it. A lot of the more compelling settings are a product of thinking outside the box rather than carefully considered game design. It's arguable wod itself if a product of that in the context of the early 90s. I doubt you could make something as edgy and devil may care now. Although that's partly due to the sheer range now.

                  You could make an anarch faction but I'd be very careful how you proceed. For a start I'd avoid simply poisoning the well with the garou nation like they did with the Sabbat or the carmarilla. You also need some productive differences in how they run things as well as some actual flaws.
                  Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-15-2021, 06:07 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                    Onyx Path upcoming Apocalyptic records have brilliant ideas so far, like AkatsukiLeder13 wrote fanbase ideas are unfamiliar to W5 designers. So far I enjoy W20 line very much. And so my ecpectations for W5 are.maby too high compered to OPP stuff
                    The people writing Apocalyptic Records aren't the same writing W5?
                    How does that work?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                      The people writing Apocalyptic Records aren't the same writing W5?
                      How does that work?

                      Apocalyptic Record is the last of the Werewolf 20th Anniversary line, offering a sum up that is developed, guided, and written by Onyx Path veterans and newer writers alike.

                      Werewolf the Apocalypse 5th edition is being done by Paradox Interactive, I've not been looking into it but I have no idea who's writing it. It's not Onyx Path. Similar to Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition it may just ignore the 20th Anniversary stuff.
                      Last edited by nofather; 10-15-2021, 03:47 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                        Here's the thing; Is the setting's cohesion more important than making sure a player in your group is not going to have flashbacks to their IRL abuse? I think the player's comfort is more important than being 1:1 with the book.

                        Different people have different limits, and removing crinos-born is making sure a very common source of trauma is avoided.
                        Abuse is a theme of this game. Kinfolk are abused by spouses. Cubs by power-drunken mentors. Bone Gnawers by everyone. Human children are thorn into bloody chunks by Red Talons. I could go ad nauseum...
                        Physical agression is common as Garou are warriors spoiling for a fight. They systematicaly killed their own brothers (Fera & Bunyip) and drove themeselves to near extinction.

                        I think this game and background are not for anyone, but some people are looking for this darkness to fight it. It can be (again, not for everyone) therapeutic to face their own traumas in the games' paralels. For others it just causes damage. Game table can be a safe space to look deep into our own flaws and traumas and try to cope with them next to friends. It can also hurt.

                        But sanitising this game, chipping away it's cores is just sad. In this setting the flaws were, for our group, merits. We were heroes fighting for the near-dead ideals, justice, acceptance, love, or just bite fomors into bits (pun intended).
                        Taking away an injustice just take away a reason for a good fight and the chance of heroism.


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                        • #42
                          If all of the playable tribes are in the core book, then W5 has one leg up on V5, I suppose. It sounds like that's about all it has going for it. I've never been a passionate fan of Werewolf, and none of the changes cited have me saying, "yes, now I'll play it, this is what I was waiting for." I have no idea who the target audience for this is.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

                            Abuse is a theme of this game. Kinfolk are abused by spouses. Cubs by power-drunken mentors. Bone Gnawers by everyone. Human children are thorn into bloody chunks by Red Talons. I could go ad nauseum...
                            Physical agression is common as Garou are warriors spoiling for a fight. They systematicaly killed their own brothers (Fera & Bunyip) and drove themeselves to near extinction.

                            I think this game and background are not for anyone, but some people are looking for this darkness to fight it. It can be (again, not for everyone) therapeutic to face their own traumas in the games' paralels. For others it just causes damage. Game table can be a safe space to look deep into our own flaws and traumas and try to cope with them next to friends. It can also hurt.

                            But sanitising this game, chipping away it's cores is just sad. In this setting the flaws were, for our group, merits. We were heroes fighting for the near-dead ideals, justice, acceptance, love, or just bite fomors into bits (pun intended).
                            Taking away an injustice just take away a reason for a good fight and the chance of heroism.

                            One my proudest achievements in game was pushing through a minor reforms to protect kinfolk from abusive spouses (slightly).

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                              If all of the playable tribes are in the core book, then W5 has one leg up on V5, I suppose. It sounds like that's about all it has going for it. I've never been a passionate fan of Werewolf, and none of the changes cited have me saying, "yes, now I'll play it, this is what I was waiting for." I have no idea who the target audience for this is.

                              Well, not all of them are. 11 is not the full count of Tribes and thats whats in W5.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                                The people writing Apocalyptic Records aren't the same writing W5?
                                How does that work?

                                Based on word from some of the writers ( who will remain nameless, cos they're awesome and PDX is vindictive) I correspond with, Paradoxs feedback on WtA books both W5 and W20 was basically ' make it edgier, lean more into outdated stereotypes, remove options, hope and nuance'.

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