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Warning: Grumpy Post. The Fenrir have Fallen.

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  • Warning: Grumpy Post. The Fenrir have Fallen.

    Confirmed by one of the spokespeople for the Werewolf: Retaliation boardgame that they are following the W5 setting bible and that the Fenrir are now a Fallen Tribe.

    *Begins punching random objects in the shed*

  • #2
    Are you sure?

    If so, that sucks, but it just strengthens my already significant misgivings about W5.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      Are you sure?

      If so, that sucks, but it just strengthens my already significant misgivings about W5.

      Well, its not word from Achilli. But it is from a production partner following his directives......so...semi-sure.

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      • #4
        We've known of of the Tribes was going to "fall" for awhile now. None of them would have made me happy exactly, but the Fenrir is probably the least interesting option, and the option that has the least potential positive impact on the game. It's basically the "safe" pick that will definitely piss some people off, and I can't see it actually making anyone happy.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Damian May View Post


          Well, its not word from Achilli. But it is from a production partner following his directives......so...semi-sure.
          Well, if that’s the way it is, I’ll likely stay away from W5 as a matter of principle.

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          • #6
            Having it be one of the tribes that can best reflect the growth of ultra-right politics in Europe makes it a good commentary on the times in which it's being published. I don't mind.

            It does make for a funny commentary on the game's setting, though, that when the word first broke that one of the tribes was going to fall, enough of the tribes are sketchy that players were able to honestly wonder for a while which one it was going to be.

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            • #7
              How does the Tribe with actual form on rooting out and utterly destroying the ultra-right element in their tribe decades ago reflect the growth? Surely the eugenics of certain Silver Fang houses or the prevalent anti-Crinos-Born rhetoric of the Fianna would be more fitting than those who actually stood up and punched the fuck out of the Nazi even if he was their cousin, uncle or brother.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                How does the Tribe with actual form on rooting out and utterly destroying the ultra-right element in their tribe decades ago reflect the growth? Surely the eugenics of certain Silver Fang houses or the prevalent anti-Crinos-Born rhetoric of the Fianna would be more fitting than those who actually stood up and punched the fuck out of the Nazi even if he was their cousin, uncle or brother.
                i have mixed feelings because on one hand you’re right, they did try and make that a plot point to try and salvage the Tribe for Revised edition. On the other hand, when the Tribe had been written since 1e with that as their thematic heart (to the point of intentionally using a swastika as their Tribal Glyph) I can appreciate the “too little too late, these guys aren’t salvageable”.

                Of course this kind of heighlights my sentiment that fixing WtA can’t be done via metaplot on the existing foundation. You need a full reboot



                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                  Having it be one of the tribes that can best reflect the growth of ultra-right politics in Europe makes it a good commentary on the times in which it's being published.
                  Beyond the point made that this commentary means undoing the work in previous editions to purge the Fenrir of their ultra-right faction(s), it's also too on the nose for my tastes.

                  If you really want to make this commentary in WtA? The Children of Gaia should fall. The Fenrir falling is just saying, "the Tribe with the strongest thematic ties to European far right-wing populist politics turns out to have lots of bad elements in them, so we're making them worse." The Coggies falling is an actual metaphor for the failures of liberal humanism to adapt to the post-Cold War world, and how that's left the opening for seemingly defeated social ills to roar back into politics. "Hey ultra-right nutjobs exist!" is only scary in the fact that it's true, and it's always been true. What's scary is the idea that we can't trust all the institutions that we built up to ensure society marches towards progress despite that truth because they're failing us. And that's exactly what the fall of the Coggies would be: the voices of moderation, unity, and equality within a society falling into corruption and their own brand of evil.

                  While perhaps a risk of being to edgy, the Coggies falling is an actual shake up to the Garou Nation. It's a blow they're not ready for, and has years of both book and play implications to explore, that touches directly on the pulse of lots of very real global issues as the institutions of the post-WWII and post-Cold War international order continue to show the cracks in their effectiveness and value. What happens if the Garou equivalent of the UN falls apart is a much more important commentary (if you make a good commentary out of it of course) than the commentary of the equivalent of Orban retaking PM in Hungary and leading the country in a regressive direction after people thought they got rid of him in '02..

                  It does make for a funny commentary on the game's setting, though, that when the word first broke that one of the tribes was going to fall, enough of the tribes are sketchy that players were able to honestly wonder for a while which one it was going to be.
                  The game's been trying to add this sort of complexity into the Tribes since 2e. There's a reason why Rev. included an idea of what the fall of each of the Tribes would look like; none of them are supposed to be immune from this potential fate.

                  When we have a book that's detailed that, the idea that fans had lots of theories about which Tribe it might be was likely more of a reflection of which Tribes that fans wanted to see go, and what the fans think Paradox's creative team is up to.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                    If so, that sucks, but it just strengthens my already significant misgivings about W5.
                    Yeah, that's how I feel...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Getting rid of any of the tribes is an error in my opinion. Getting rid of the get because dumb skinhead trash wants to play one, assuming that's the reason is genuinely baffling.

                      Im surprised I have to comment on this but the 'solution'is to not let a Nazi into your games not burn down the game to spite them. I'm not going to want one in my game even if hypothetical skinhead plays a loverly friendly hippy child of gaia or were playing thirsty sword lesbians....because its a bloody nazi.

                      I mean on a practical level gets one of the tribes were the fact you're genrally a middle class white dude writting other people's folklore isn't an issue so anything get should be one of ones they're keen to keep.
                      Last edited by Ragged Robin; 04-09-2022, 04:58 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Dang. For my group, that is probably the worst choice. Our one hard-core Werewolf fan is also a massive Get of Fenris fan. In fact, I don't think I can recall him ever playing a non-Get character. So, no chance of my group playing this now. Any other tribe would have worked better. Oh well.

                        Personally, I was really going it hoping it would be the Glasswalkers falling to the Weaver, since that would make a more interesting dynamic than having another tribe shack up with the Wyrn.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Also confirmed that the Stargazers are out as well. But as the departure of a large section of the Tribe was a plotpoint in Revised its probably not as much of a surprise.

                          Achilli did state only 11 playable tribes in W5......so I guess they can't use the ' just like 1st Ed' excuse they used for V5.

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                          • #14
                            Ultimately, the 13 Tribes are a really bad setup. There's a drastic divide between ones highly tied to specific cultures, and ones with more wide-spread if not global appeal by attaching to concepts that crop up in all human (or canine in one case) communities. The Tribes as they stand are anti-Golidlocks: they're in the middle when there should be either less of them mechanically (but expand the role of Camps/etc. to create local variations) or more of them so you can get a better spread of cultural ties and not try to have most of them be any sort of global.

                            Except (and this is a bit except) for continuing the lore as already established, you'd lose nothing from the game if the White Howlers, Fianna, and Fenrir were just different groups within one larger northern European Tribe. The tragedy of the fall of the Howlers would remain the same, its impact of the Fianna would probably be more justified as Tribemates instead of being territorial rivals, and so on.

                            But, this is a continuation, not a reboot. It's not the time to try to fix these elements. The fans losing access to playing two Tribes needs some serious payoff that I at least can't imagine what it would be. Even as someone that thinks WtA has the wrong number of Tribes, I don't see what losing two is supposed to do for the game; there's a reason why a lot of people felt sidelining the Stargazers (who were brought back anyway) wasn't a good choice. The Stargazers getting re-axed is also not a good look when Paradox is indicating they have no intention of revisiting the KotE in V5. Getting rid of the south-east Asian vampire variants, and the only south-east Asian specific Tribe of Garou, at best, is a huge red flag that they can't attract creators that know the cultures well enough to actually do a decent job instead of rehashing the issues the oWW had.

                            "We have to trim down the Tribes, but only via metaplot," feels like such a corporate executive directive and not an organic creative decision, it can't help but taint preconceptions about what's going to happen with W5.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why the fuck did they go with the decision if this is true? Do these writers seriously take the "All Get are Nazis" at face value muttered by some fans who have no clue about their lore when in revised, most of the tribe literally slaughtered the Nazi elements?

                              I may not be European nor of Norse descent, but if they simply made the Get fall to make a "commentary against the far right in Europe" this is the worst decision they could ever make.

                              Instead of making them stray away from Nazi shit, they somehow made it worse despite an easy solution to this.

                              I genuinely fear what they will do to the Stargazers and the Beast Courts to some extent.

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