What is the health of a materialised spirit

[Tanakyelle]

I will soon have a scene where the player will face several materialised spirits but I can't find details for the health of those spirit in W20.

The book say that spirits use willpower to attack, soak and dodge, Rage to damage and essence is the health pool.
The materialize charm say : The spirit uses its Traits in the same way as it would in the Umbra, rather than having Attributes and Abilities. Materialized spirits do possess health levels like other corporeal beings. So let's say a spirit with 20 essence have 20 health level or as much as a werewolf for example ?

They will also face a Wyrm Hole, that thing have from 50 to 200 essence. So one way is a giga busted tank that can do nothing but get damaged hoping to get help (ok fine with that) or a "normal" health level pool.

Did you guys come up with a home made system or are you using one of those solution ?

[Black Fox]

I think translating Essence into Health Levels would provide way too many Health Levels as a material creature. Prior corebooks provided more details than W20.

In Revised corebook, the description on the Materialize charm is:

Materialize: This Charm lets a spirit take physical form on Earth. The spirit must have a Gnosis score equal to or greater than the area's Gauntlet rating. A spirit's physical form appears just as the spirit appears in the Umbra. The spirit's Gnosis rating is used for all Social and Mental rolls. Stamina and Dexterity rolls use the spirit's Willpower as a dice pool. Strength uses Rage. All rules for spirit Traits in the Umbra apply to the physical world. Materialized spirits don't have Abilities, but their dice pools are assumed to take the spirit's knowledge into account. In some circumstances, such as a toad-spirit trying to program a computer, the Storyteller should divide the spirit's dice pool in half and raise the difficulty numbers to reflect the spirit's lack of knowledge.

Materialized spirit forms do possess health levels like most physical creatures. Spirits usually have seven health levels, but the Storyteller may make exceptions for things like elephant-spirits or particularly monstrous Banes. If a spirit "dies" in the Material world, it enters Slumber automatically upon its return to the Umbra. Many spirits will not use this Charm except in extraordinary circumstances. The modern world is far from welcoming to their kind.

In the old 2nd edition corebook, Spirits used "Power" and not "Essence". They had to spend Power to create their own body, and they could spend Power in various ways to increase its stats, including additional Health Levels. So Revised streamlined spirits more and made it easier for STs to run (IMO).

So if I was the ST, I'd start with 7 Health Levels, maybe more depending on the type of spirit, and might possibly allow the spirit to spend Essence to increase even further. But only to a limit. Any Materialized Body has to work with actual physics, and it shouldn't have more Health Levels than an equivalent real animal on Earth (other than the normal 7 it gets - if a materialized Rat Gaffling is the size of a rat, I'm OK with it having 7 Health Levels because it's a spirit).

[Prometheas]

In the old 2nd edition corebook, Spirits used "Power" and not "Essence". They had to spend Power to create their own body, and they could spend Power in various ways to increase its stats, including additional Health Levels. So Revised streamlined spirits more and made it easier for STs to run (IMO).

I honestly prefer this system more. It better highlights as to why letting banes feed and accumulate power/essence is a literal disaster waiting to happen. It also had a quirk of making over-fed spirits More powerful after they manifested in the real world.

Theres a canonical bane somewhere that was feeding on a nuclear waste dump for years and had millions of essence. Under the modern system, it running out of food and manifesting in reality would just mean the local garou dealing with an annoying damage spounge. Under 2e rules, this thing was a mini-apocalypse in it's own right that would require the Entire garou nation to deal with.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I honestly prefer this system more. It better highlights as to why letting banes feed and accumulate power/essence is a literal disaster waiting to happen. It also had a quirk of making over-fed spirits More powerful after they manifested in the real world.

Theres a canonical bane somewhere that was feeding on a nuclear waste dump for years and had millions of essence. Under the modern system, it running out of food and manifesting in reality would just mean the local garou dealing with an annoying damage spounge. Under 2e rules, this thing was a mini-apocalypse in it's own right that would require the Entire garou nation to deal with.

That's probably why the switchover happened. While a bane that fed well for a long time would be bad news, it probably shouldn't be that pay grade of bad news.

[Herr Meister]

I will soon have a scene where the player will face several materialised spirits but I can't find details for the health of those spirit in W20.

The book say that spirits use willpower to attack, soak and dodge, Rage to damage and essence is the health pool.
The materialize charm say : The spirit uses its Traits in the same way as it would in the Umbra, rather than having Attributes and Abilities. Materialized spirits do possess health levels like other corporeal beings. So let's say a spirit with 20 essence have 20 health level or as much as a werewolf for example ?

They will also face a Wyrm Hole, that thing have from 50 to 200 essence. So one way is a giga busted tank that can do nothing but get damaged hoping to get help (ok fine with that) or a "normal" health level pool.

Did you guys come up with a home made system or are you using one of those solution ?

They use Rage for damage AND soak, Willpower is the equivalent of Dexterity in combat and Essence is Healthy poo

[Heavy Arms]

Spirits soak with Willpower (W20 p. 366 in the Spirit in Combat box).

That said, I'd follow Black Fox's advice by default. If you want more granularity to it, I would layer the 2e version on top of it: a spirit gets 7 HL and can spend Essence to get more (or perhaps reduce Essence for other benefits). But the 2e numbers would need some reworking.

[Herr Meister]

Spirits soak with Willpower (W20 p. 366 in the Spirit in Combat box).

That said, I'd follow Black Fox's advice by default. If you want more granularity to it, I would layer the 2e version on top of it: a spirit gets 7 HL and can spend Essence to get more (or perhaps reduce Essence for other benefits). But the 2e numbers would need some reworking.

This is such a mess, because V20 Dark Ages Vampire p. 400 states that Spirits use Rage to soak damage, now I've realized they use Willpower in Mage and Werewolf, I mean sometimes it seems vampire is set in a different world from Werewolf and Mage lol. The lack of consistency is almost ludicrous...

[Heavy Arms]

That's how the games have been for over 30 years now. oWW and Onyx Path (under CCP and Paradox) have said the point of the 20th books is to be true to the old games as nostalgia editions (hence 20th Anniversary). Hopefully 5e will finally stop that, as the CofD did (even then the CofD sees minor difference between books as newer books use different language to make certain points clearer even if not official errata to what the old books say). .

[Tanakyelle]

I think translating Essence into Health Levels would provide way too many Health Levels as a material creature. Prior corebooks provided more details than W20.

So if I was the ST, I'd start with 7 Health Levels, maybe more depending on the type of spirit, and might possibly allow the spirit to spend Essence to increase even further. But only to a limit. Any Materialized Body has to work with actual physics, and it shouldn't have more Health Levels than an equivalent real animal on Earth (other than the normal 7 it gets - if a materialized Rat Gaffling is the size of a rat, I'm OK with it having 7 Health Levels because it's a spirit).

That's my take too. I think I'll cut it half way for the health, 7 health level, maybe try to see if giving +1 per 20 essence seems okay. And then give myself some room to give more to powerful bane if need be.

That's how the games have been for over 30 years now. oWW and Onyx Path (under CCP and Paradox) have said the point of the 20th books is to be true to the old games as nostalgia editions (hence 20th Anniversary). Hopefully 5e will finally stop that, as the CofD did (even then the CofD sees minor difference between books as newer books use different language to make certain points clearer even if not official errata to what the old books say). .

Yeah there always has been a lack of consistency between games which is why crossplay in a setting with several sets of rules is always a headache.

[Prometheas]

That's probably why the switchover happened. While a bane that fed well for a long time would be bad news, it probably shouldn't be that pay grade of bad news.

Maybe? If so, I disagree with the philosophy entirely. Most of the "Well fed" banes a werewolf will come across will have like 20 essence above their normal max at most(meaning the "strongest" banes in most scenarios will have an essence of 50). On average, most garou are going to have more than 50 dots of stats on their character sheet.

The million essence bane is Supposed to be different though. It represents the epic and complete failure of the garou nation, it's only reason for existing being that the garou Chose not to do anything about it. Thematically, facing this this thing should be the narrative equivalent of facing the Garou nation's internal corruption, it's history of failure, and All the negative karma of their ancestors, a damage spongy bane doesn't do that concept justice.

That's my take too. I think I'll cut it half way for the health, 7 health level, maybe try to see if giving +1 per 20 essence seems okay. And then give myself some room to give more to powerful bane if need be.

Most banes aren't going to have more than 15 essence considering essence total is usually measured by adding Gnosis, Willpower, and Rage(granted this isn't a hard limit, all spirits can store more essence than this, but they have to find a Very powerful food source to do so).

Giving a spirit +1 health per 20 essence in material form will mean most of the strongest banes to ever exist will have the stats of the average joe shmoe in material, while also having a redonculous amount of health un-materialized, since essence Is health in the spirit world. The balance behind that is a bit weird.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Maybe? If so, I disagree with the philosophy entirely. Most of the "Well fed" banes a werewolf will come across will have like 20 essence above their normal max at most(meaning the "strongest" banes in most scenarios will have an essence of 50). On average, most garou are going to have more than 50 dots of stats on their character sheet.

The million essence bane is Supposed to be different though. It represents the epic and complete failure of the garou nation, it's only reason for existing being that the garou Chose not to do anything about it. Thematically, facing this this thing should be the narrative equivalent of facing the Garou nation's internal corruption, it's history of failure, and All the negative karma of their ancestors, a damage spongy bane doesn't do that concept justice.

The epic and complete failure of the Garou Nation shouldn't be something that you can punch in the face, at any quantity of Power/Essence.

Most banes aren't going to have more than 15 essence considering essence total is usually measured by adding Gnosis, Willpower, and Rage(granted this isn't a hard limit, all spirits can store more essence than this, but they have to find a Very powerful food source to do so).

Giving a spirit +1 health per 20 essence in material form will mean most of the strongest banes to ever exist will have the stats of the average joe shmoe in material, while also having a redonculous amount of health un-materialized, since essence Is health in the spirit world. The balance behind that is a bit weird.

It's just their material form. If you want to have an actual fight with a spirit, you step sideways. If you can't, you're just sending it back from time to time.

[Prometheas]

The epic and complete failure of the Garou Nation shouldn't be something that you can punch in the face, at any quantity of Power/Essence.

You aren't? You're facing the consequences of it. The garou nation wouldn't magically fix itself like some disney movie if they killed this one bane.

I also don't think a demon that embodies the karmic backlash of an entire nation's sin's would be done justice as what is essentially a normal enemy with a lot of health levels.

It's just their material form. If you want to have an actual fight with a spirit, you step sideways. If you can't, you're just sending it back from time to time.

I don't feel this addresses what I was talking about though? Having a major bane manifest in reality should be a big deal a lot of fanfare, it should be something like a natural disaster. Having the war leader of Ba'ashkai's third legion manifest in reality as joe from accounting and having him bring violence to the world by making the beaurocratic processes at the businesses he consults more inconvenient losses a lot of the hype.

Werewolf is a Very combat oriented game. Werewolves shouldn't be able to solve all their problems with violence for sure, but there should still be a sense of hype and action that has a pack fighting the manifested form of a corrupted child of grandfather thunder that looks like a tornado to the normal mortals. WoD is just as much a gameline that tries to emulate rule-of-cool bordering-on-stupid that was common in 90's action movies as it is a gameline about horror.