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  • Bubasti lore speculation

    While flipping through the Bastet Breedbook, I noticed something: I think the Bubasti were meant to be a Revenant line, but the trait got removed to streamline them with the rest of the tribes. Older books hint even more that they were planned as a vampire crossover splat, similar to the Ceilican with Fae.

    I actually agree with toning it down if that's the case. I'm not a big fan of splat-stacking, but seeing how Revenants are comperatively weak (in comparison to full splats) I thought it would be fun to theory-craft a little.

    The offical lore goes like this:
    After Set got Osiris entombed, the Bubasti teamed up with Isis and her gang against him. Set brought down the hammer and in the aftermath the Setites killed almost all Feline kinfolk of the Bubasti and ghouled the rest. Well, they killed all the Kyphur cats, but that's two birds with one stone.

    The Caliah then goes on to explain that the Setites keep the remaining ghouled cats in some dungeon and allow the Bubasti to breed with them, without realizing they have been sustaining a sworn enemy Changing Breed for several millennia.

    Uh...

    I mean, they did a similarly stupid thing with Sobek but at least he's a truly dead end. Even if it's a Setite plot to control the Bubasti, they would be better off just wiping them out. Besides, after a few generations the Bubasti would have enough breeding stock by themselves and would no longer need to rely on that arrangement.

    Personally, I think that story is something they tell the kids and the six immortal khepur are ghouled Feline Bubasti who are the sole remaining strain of possible animal kin. That's why they are so obsessed with breeding control. Their offspring with cat kinfolk of other tribes / feral cats probably isn't strong enough to sustain the lineage without inbreeding. Also ties in nicely with their Yava: When all immortals of the tribe are slain, the tribe itself will die with them.
    I know there is a Level 6 Gift that provides an alternative explanation, but that seems to me like it's been tacked on to make things work.

    Either way, the continous influx of ghoul blood plus the inbreeding means they would eventually create a Revenant line.


    Mechanically, it's pretty simple:

    - Bubasti get a blood pool like all Revenants, and regain 1 BP / day

    - They gain a point of Potence, but I would swap that with Celerity for flavor reasons.

    - They would also gain access to Level 1 disciplines of their Revenant line. Given their affinity for magic, Thaumaturgy and/or Necromancy paths suggest themselves. There are plenty to choose from that would fit thematically, and more importantly, it gives them access to Level 1 rituals. "Their proprietary magics resemble rites, in that they take time and preparation to perform." - (CB20, p76)

    I like that option a lot better than using Sorcerer paths, tbh. It just fits with their overall theme and the Wyrm touch they gain from using their magic. As ST, I would probably even allow a higher cap for the paths. They are really XP expensive and the blood to fuel them regenerates very slowly. Necromancy would bring them closer to the Striders, and the two are related in lore anyways.

    - Half-awake Beast plus Rage don't play nice, so Bubasti would probably lose their Rage pool together with their control over it. Instead, they would have to rely on a Path of Enlightenment to control their Beast. Humanity is the prime pick, but other paths could create some good role-playing opportunities. Maybe they even made their own, a Gaian PoE could be really interesting (Bahari paths, with Gaia wearing her Lilith makeup).
    Blood points can substitute for Rage points, like for the Ananasi. They could still Frenzy, of course- maybe even a bit easier. 10-Willpower vs Path level, or something.

    I know it's all a little Sam Haight. But even if not used to the full extent, it provides a pinch of spice to the tribe they currently lack imo.

  • #2
    That would clash for the given reason for why Garou and Fera can't be dhampirs, and that would seem to suggest that they couldn't be revenants, either; the powers are fundamentally incompatible. Also, vampire can't be trusted on the issue of Sobek, because Mokole die the day after the embrace, as their intrinsic connection with the sun causes them to explode.

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    • #3
      I know dhampirs and revenants are mechanically almost identical, but metaphysically rather different. There's precedent with kinfolk revenants (the Danislavs), but whether or not they can become full shapechangers varies between versions I think.

      As for Sobek, there's an antediluvian with magic affinity involved, so it's basically ST fiat.

      Comment


      • #4
        My memories are a bit foggy, but the ghouled animal kinfolk part was just icing on the cake
        After Sutekh had cursed and driven away the Silent Striders,he cursed the Bubasit too as a punshiment for joining the Osirian League and as a result, their lives are forever tied to the soils of Khem, their ancestral home. It is said that if all of the Bubasti of a given generation leave Egypt, that generation will be the last, as a twisted mirror of the Silent Stried's curse "By the names I have spoken, O Lupines, I curse you. I place my mark upon you, that you shall be forever severed from thy dead fathers and mothers. I damn you with my touch, that never again shall you rest in the lands of thy people. May the names of your ancestors be forgotten, and may their ghosts fade from hunger in the Duat. As I was cast out, so then shall you be exiled, voiceless and lost forevermore."
        The Striders were cast out by the Curse. The Bubasti were cursed to stay
        Bubastis, the city of cats, the city that was erected to commemorate the union between the wizard-priests of Khem and the Bubasti was attacked, was razed and plundered and and the cat Kinfolk were taken captive or killed by the Followers of Set. The Bubasti were forced to watch as the Followers of Set turned their Kin into ghouls and their curse unfolded: Eternal Hunger, both for secrets and for food.
        Actually two out three of their yava is Sutekh's Curses...
        - The Black Soil of Khem is forever tied to the tribe; if all Bubasti in a generation flee the land, they will be the last of their kind.
        - Bubasti are always hungry. Though no amount of food or drink will ease their craving, and they will always eat what's put before them.
        But to be honest? I'm not sure the third, "When all immortals of the tribe are slain, the tribe itself will die with them". is Sutekh's doing or not...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          That would clash for the given reason for why Garou and Fera can't be dhampirs, and that would seem to suggest that they couldn't be revenants, either; the powers are fundamentally incompatible. Also, vampire can't be trusted on the issue of Sobek, because Mokole die the day after the embrace, as their intrinsic connection with the sun causes them to explode.
          I don't think this reason should stay in the way of the story. Weird shit happens, fringe cases and bizarre exceptions, for a number of possible reasons. Something unique to the Bubasti, or a ritual enacted by either party, could have caused this to happen. It could be even a last ditch spiritual intervention in the face of the destruction of the entire breed (better to have them in such a state than not at all). If the ST wants to tell this story, it seems interesting on its own for some games.

          On the matter of official lore, it remains that neither Sobek nor the Kyphur had ever been effectively retconed. While taken at face value they fly straight on the face of the rules that were better established later, their existence can be explained by narrative shenanigans or simply abysmally low chances that wouldn't merit presence in the rules but can be used in lore. Anyway it remains that the current canon still has the Ghoul Bubasti, and Sobek as a possibility for any ST that wants to use it.

          voidshaper I must say, though, that this does not necessarily creates a Revenant family by itself. Of course, either the Setites, the Bubasti or some spirit could work the arcane processes necessary, but Revenants aren't simply the result of Ghoul breeding. There is something else that's necessary for the leap, almost always a very intentional and long process. Breeding Ghouls and Ghouling in the same lineages would, by itself, just result in a line of people used to become Ghouls.

          But again, wanting, as an ST, to have those Revenants is different from thinking they're the only logical conclusion. They're not, but they're doable with little more work in your current lore.

          For the rules, I don't think you need as much changes, we already have the Abominations to draw comparisons. I'll comment it one by one:
          • Blood Pool, ok, seems pretty straightforward;
          • Initial Discipline I don't think it's worth to change from Potence, this isn't a thing for any Ghoul or Revenant;
          • Family Disciplines have to be fully considered, and here Celerity could be a good fit, but I'm not sure about Blood Magic. If you go for it, choose carefully the Paths they would have access to. Other than that, what would be the 3rd choice?
          • Rage Ghouls and Abominations keep it, why would Revenants lose it? I think enhancing their chances at Frenzy is fair, but not by much. Taking out Rage will just make them a new Ananasi flavor for no gain;
          • Path of Enlightenment I don't think is necessary. If it is, take a look at the Hierarchy of Wyrm Taint and adjust it to the Bubasti and your chronicle needs. They're still Changers first, do not plunge them more than necessary in Vampire rules or you'll lose track of your actual goal here.
          The overall advice I have here is to keep in mind they're just Revenants. This is not a little "Sam Height" and that shouldn't be so freely used as a bad adjective. Height wasn't a bad character because he was a bucket of powers, but because he was badly written with the explanations of how he acquired abilities becoming weaker and more uninteresting as time passed (the whole Skin-Dancer thing is actually pretty good).

          Revenants acquire Blood slowly and have limited access to Disciplines. It is a big advantage from the perspective of a mortal, but barely worth of mention from the perspective of a Changer. They have a fraction of the problems actual vampires have with the Beast, and their small and slowly replenishing Blood Pool make even the few Disciplines they acquire less reliable. The other uses of Blood for a Revenant barely compare to what a Bubasti just naturally is.

          Here the greatest advantage for you is purely thematic. If you feel they shouldn't get any benefit without drawbacks, that's exceedingly easy to solve: don't give any Discipline dot for free, period. Have the Hierarchy of Wyrm Taint in place just to measure when they start to feel as Wyrmish (below 7), so they have to abide to higher standards to avoid a helluva lot of bad consequences. And that's it, I even think that applying both effects would be too much for such a small benefit overall.

          You should also consider how their condition affects their response to Ghouling and the Embrace (remember, Revenants aren't Ghouls exactly and shouldn't be assumed as such) and the situation of their Kinfolk. Are those Bubasti free for Ghouldom? How they deal with it, being that both a risk and a means to enhance powers they already have anyway? Are they free for the Embrace? How they deal with such a risk? Can they reproduce normally as Revenants do? If so, then how they deal with the Kinfolk-Revenants they produce? Are there cat-Revenants among the Kyphur? Has the Bubasti ever tried to rescue some of those cats to re-establish the species, even if as Revenants?

          And lets keep in mind that even the concept of Revenant-Changers isn't completely new. The Danislavs were Shadow Lord Kinfolk, and even being hunted by their werewolf kin they went back to the ways of Grandfather Thunder after becoming Revenants and had enough favor from the Incarna to hold their own for years in a war against the Tzimisce after destroying their vampiric "creator" and taking control of his domain. While not Revenants, the Dunsirn are a Giovanni vassal family that still has a number of Kinfolk and the confirmed possibility of Garou from time to time.


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          • #6
            Shadeprowler Thanks for providing context- the third Yava is what I was trying to explain with the alternative take on the six immortal khepur. I just can't buy into the idea of the Setites playing matchmaker for the Bubasti for what, 4000 years? And in all that time the Bubasti didn't manage to create a breeding stock from the offspring that created? It just doesn't track.

            But even if you accept that Set's Cache Of Fertile Feline Ghoul Kyphur Kinfolk exists, the background lore reads like the Bubasti are supposed to be revenants. As I mentioned, I'm not a big fan of splat-stacking myself. I admit I like the idea of Bubasti having kine magic which taints them, though.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              I don't think this reason should stay in the way of the story. Weird shit happens, fringe cases and bizarre exceptions, for a number of possible reasons. Something unique to the Bubasti, or a ritual enacted by either party, could have caused this to happen. It could be even a last ditch spiritual intervention in the face of the destruction of the entire breed (better to have them in such a state than not at all). If the ST wants to tell this story, it seems interesting on its own for some games.
              Honestly, when I first thought about it, I suspected a botched Spell of Life ritual on the remaining kinfolk enacted by what are now the six khepur. There's no hint to that in the lore (aside from the Bubasti being part of the Osirian League) though, so I left it out.


              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              I must say, though, that this does not necessarily creates a Revenant family by itself. Of course, either the Setites, the Bubasti or some spirit could work the arcane processes necessary, but Revenants aren't simply the result of Ghoul breeding. There is something else that's necessary for the leap, almost always a very intentional and long process. Breeding Ghouls and Ghouling in the same lineages would, by itself, just result in a line of people used to become Ghouls.
              True. If it's magic, the Bubasti have that. Although there is little reason for them to enforce it and it would be a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              But again, wanting, as an ST, to have those Revenants is different from thinking they're the only logical conclusion. They're not, but they're doable with little more work in your current lore.
              To be clear, I don't want them to be Revenants just for the hell of it. I think their lore hints at this, and the thread was meant as a what-if to explore the possibility.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              For the rules, I don't think you need as much changes, we already have the Abominations to draw comparisons. I'll comment it one by one:
              • Blood Pool, ok, seems pretty straightforward;
              • Initial Discipline I don't think it's worth to change from Potence, this isn't a thing for any Ghoul or Revenant;
              • Family Disciplines have to be fully considered, and here Celerity could be a good fit, but I'm not sure about Blood Magic. If you go for it, choose carefully the Paths they would have access to. Other than that, what would be the 3rd choice?
              • Rage Ghouls and Abominations keep it, why would Revenants lose it? I think enhancing their chances at Frenzy is fair, but not by much. Taking out Rage will just make them a new Ananasi flavor for no gain;
              • Path of Enlightenment I don't think is necessary. If it is, take a look at the Hierarchy of Wyrm Taint and adjust it to the Bubasti and your chronicle needs. They're still Changers first, do not plunge them more than necessary in Vampire rules or you'll lose track of your actual goal here.
              Point taken on the Rage and PoE. As third choice of discipline, I toyed with the idea of Obtenebration (what with them being shadowcats) but I'm not really feeling it.

              Honestly, if I had a Bubasti player I would probably just offer them the option of taking select Necromancy or Thauma paths and rituals instead of the Hedge-Magick paths and have them pay with Gnosis instead of blood.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              The overall advice I have here is to keep in mind they're just Revenants. This is not a little "Sam Height" and that shouldn't be so freely used as a bad adjective. Height wasn't a bad character because he was a bucket of powers, but because he was badly written with the explanations of how he acquired abilities becoming weaker and more uninteresting as time passed (the whole Skin-Dancer thing is actually pretty good).

              Revenants acquire Blood slowly and have limited access to Disciplines. It is a big advantage from the perspective of a mortal, but barely worth of mention from the perspective of a Changer. They have a fraction of the problems actual vampires have with the Beast, and their small and slowly replenishing Blood Pool make even the few Disciplines they acquire less reliable. The other uses of Blood for a Revenant barely compare to what a Bubasti just naturally is.
              Agreed on all points. As mentioned, if they were meant to be Revenants, I actually think it's better they weren't overladen with additional mechanics that barely make a difference in the official release.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Here the greatest advantage for you is purely thematic. If you feel they shouldn't get any benefit without drawbacks, that's exceedingly easy to solve: don't give any Discipline dot for free, period. Have the Hierarchy of Wyrm Taint in place just to measure when they start to feel as Wyrmish (below 7), so they have to abide to higher standards to avoid a helluva lot of bad consequences. And that's it, I even think that applying both effects would be too much for such a small benefit overall.
              That's a very elegant solution.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              You should also consider how their condition affects their response to Ghouling and the Embrace (remember, Revenants aren't Ghouls exactly and shouldn't be assumed as such) and the situation of their Kinfolk. Are those Bubasti free for Ghouldom? How they deal with it, being that both a risk and a means to enhance powers they already have anyway? Are they free for the Embrace? How they deal with such a risk? Can they reproduce normally as Revenants do? If so, then how they deal with the Kinfolk-Revenants they produce? Are there cat-Revenants among the Kyphur? Has the Bubasti ever tried to rescue some of those cats to re-establish the species, even if as Revenants?

              And lets keep in mind that even the concept of Revenant-Changers isn't completely new. The Danislavs were Shadow Lord Kinfolk, and even being hunted by their werewolf kin they went back to the ways of Grandfather Thunder after becoming Revenants and had enough favor from the Incarna to hold their own for years in a war against the Tzimisce after destroying their vampiric "creator" and taking control of his domain. While not Revenants, the Dunsirn are a Giovanni vassal family that still has a number of Kinfolk and the confirmed possibility of Garou from time to time.
              These points I see as the main benefit of the Revenant take for a player to explore, which makes both for a more interesting background and a motivation to pry into their Tribe history. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not so much about the dots, and more about the fluff.

              Thank you for your well thought out reply!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                True. If it's magic, the Bubasti have that. Although there is little reason for them to enforce it and it would be a bit of a chicken and egg situation.
                Again, it could be the Setites or a Spirit intervention. And if by the Bubasti, they could have done it with some kind of magic they had before, that is now integrated within their Necromancy, like the Giovanni themselves trace their signature Paths to magic they studied when alive.

                Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                Point taken on the Rage and PoE. As third choice of discipline, I toyed with the idea of Obtenebration (what with them being shadowcats) but I'm not really feeling it.
                Seems like an option. Maybe Animalism?

                Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                These points I see as the main benefit of the Revenant take for a player to explore, which makes both for a more interesting background and a motivation to pry into their Tribe history. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not so much about the dots, and more about the fluff.
                It does seem like an interesting theme to explore, and I'm always sad when people become so wary of "the dots" that they throw away whole concepts and story ideas because of prejudice against "op gonzo", which is actually a very poorly thought reason.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                  Shadeprowler Thanks for providing context- the third Yava is what I was trying to explain with the alternative take on the six immortal khepur. I just can't buy into the idea of the Setites playing matchmaker for the Bubasti for what, 4000 years? And in all that time the Bubasti didn't manage to create a breeding stock from the offspring that created? It just doesn't track.

                  But even if you accept that Set's Cache Of Fertile Feline Ghoul Kyphur Kinfolk exists, the background lore reads like the Bubasti are supposed to be revenants. As I mentioned, I'm not a big fan of splat-stacking myself. I admit I like the idea of Bubasti having kine magic which taints them, though.
                  I sometimes give the Bubasit the Danislav treatment
                  The Danislavs are a now-extinct revenant family that descended from the Kinfolk of the Shadow Lords.

                  Originally a noble dynasty with ties to the Shadow Lords, the Danislavs of northern Transylvania fell under the sway of the Tzimisce Florescu, who kept them in his dungeons for the first ten years of their life and conditioned them on serving him. When a pack of Shadow Lords ventured into his domain, they were savagely attacked by their former Kin and only one escaped to spread the tale. Count Florescu was eager to display his triumph and sent his revenants as ambassadors and diplomats to the domains of other Tzimisce. He gained great prestige as his cultured family gained a reputation for their services. Unknown to him however, many of the revenants turned away from him and began to worship another master — the mighty Incarna known as Grandfather Thunder. With his aid, the Danislavs were temporarily able to overthrow their master and become the lords of their domain, only to inspire the wrath of the whole Voivodate against them. In 1399, a Danislav betrayed the remaining members of his family to the Tzimisce, becoming the sole survivor of the line and was rewarded with the Embrace.

                  Family Disciplines: Auspex, Protean, Vicissitude; can learn Shadow Lords Gifts up to Level 3 as an out-of-clan Discipline.
                  Weakness: Each Danislav takes aggravated damage from silver, suffers aversion to wolfsbane and become bestial when touched by the light of the full moon. Additionally, their former masters have become their most dire enemies.

                  Sure, the Danislavs are... were humans. But with the animal-kin would work totally too in my humble oppinion
                  And as you sad... few thousand years. Count Florescu made the Daniuslav in a decade
                  Obfuscate and Presence are given, cats, charming and invisible... the third? Akhu? Mummy Hekau? Necromancy? If you want to give them vampiric things. Tho hedge magic would totally work
                  Obtenebration if Apep helped them to get away from the Setites (after all, chaos and darkness serpent he is)
                  As for weakness, light aversion, like the Settite? If you want to be cruel, cats always sleep during the day anyway, but I think the Eternal Hunger Yava is kinda fitting for them

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                    Seems like an option. Maybe Animalism?
                    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
                    Obfuscate and Presence are given, cats, charming and invisible... the third? Akhu? Mummy Hekau? Necromancy?
                    Obfuscate, Presence, Akhu would not be a bad spread for them. Akhu also provides some Necromancy (Revelations of Duat) and is appropriately themed, if you skip over the serpent stuff.
                    I would say No to Hekau. That would maybe work for the immortals, but not for the tribe as a whole. Actually, I don't remember if there are any active relations between current day Bubasti and Mummies. Given their mutual history, I would expect so.

                    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
                    As for weakness, light aversion, like the Settite? If you want to be cruel, cats always sleep during the day anyway, but I think the Eternal Hunger Yava is kinda fitting for them
                    I too think their Yava already covers the weakness with the hunger. Combined with monteparnas suggestion to use the Hierarchy of Wyrm Taint, it's enough of a drawback.
                    Last edited by voidshaper; 07-07-2022, 04:16 AM.

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                    • #11
                      AFAIK there are no set relationships between modern-day Mummies and no one in particular.

                      The old ones are already too used to strike relationships on a case by case basis. They can have something with anyone at all, but never a set stance about a whole splat. The new batch created since the 90's is too young and independent from the old ones to rely on ancient ties, although they may have formed new ones based on their own experiences since then.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                        The Caliah then goes on to explain that the Setites keep the remaining ghouled cats in some dungeon and allow the Bubasti to breed with them, without realizing they have been sustaining a sworn enemy Changing Breed for several millennia.
                        That's not been my interpretation. The Setites know the Bubasti are their enemy and trying to kill them. That's why they wiped out the Kyphur originally. They keep a handful of specimens alive by ghouldom out of typical supervillain sadism. They take pleasure in turning their old enemies into monsters they control, and use it to torment the few homid Bubasti still alive.

                        Occasionally letting a Bubasti know the Kyhpur are alive in some form, and even allowing them to mate, would only be a reward to those Bubasti who are betraying their own kind or performing some other great traitorous service to the Setites. Perhaps these Bubasti are even blood bonded themselves at this point. Who knows? But this clearly isn't a zoo that the Setites keep open for their enemies. And the Bastet breedbrook uses the term mate, not breed. While it's obvious you interpreted that to mean they have children, I assumed they just had sex but without any children resulting.

                        And it's not like these are normal Kyphur. There are only "several" of them. They are all blind by now. And they are mutated into giant, savage forms. These are hardly a threat to the Setites. And it's not even clear they could repopulate the extinct population, or if they are even able to conceive and birth new Kyphur. If I were the ST, the answer would likely be no.

                        Is this smart of the Setites? Wouldn't it be better for them to destroy the few remaining Kyphur outright? Maybe. But I don't think it's that much of a threat to them even if the Bubasti could rescue all of them.

                        The idea that the six elder Khephur are truly immortal, and that they are because they are Revenants is an intriguing idea. But if the khephur are Revenants, doesn't that imply they are servants of the Setites and thus manipulating the Bubasti on their behalf? If not, why not? If they aren't servants of the Setites, how exactly did they get all this vampire blood in them over the years to become Revenants at some point? Also, Revenants aren't eternal. They just age slower and live much longer. To actually become immortal, they'd need real vampire vitae keeping them ghouled (and likely blood bond), but just Revenant vitae. So are the immortal Khepur actual vampires then? Blood bonded Revenants to Setites? Something else?

                        And if you mean the ENTIRE line of Bubasti are now Revenants (which I can't tell from your post), I think that really creates problems. Revenants aren't necessarily loyal to their line's creators. We have lots of examples of Revenants turning on vampires. But it would turn the Bubasti into something I think other Bastet (not to mention the other Changing Breeds) would find abominable. I think it would cause more problems than what it would provide for PCs or as an ST tool.

                        Reading the same information as you (presumably, I don't know how many sources are out there referencing the Bubasti. I just have the Breedbrook from 1997, and while I have read it multiple times I'm certainly not an expert on it) I don't see the same clues you do that their original concept would have been as a Revenant.

                        I'd also like to state that while the game lore today assumes Revevants happen if ghouls breed with other ghouls and do so for a long time, this was not the original intention of the game. Revenants were originally created by the Tal'mahe'ra and were a result of the Verbena members of that society experimenting with vitae. But since the games since Revised made a concerted effort to eliminate most references to the other game lines, this is either ignored or forgotten about.

                        So I don't think the Bubasti were intended to be Revenants. And if you like the idea that the Kephur (or perhaps the entire tribe) are really Revenants as some dark secret in your chronicle (which is great, I love it when STs intentionally depart from canon to recreate a sense of mystery in their chronicles), I think you need to think out some of the implications and backstory to that.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          Is this smart of the Setites? Wouldn't it be better for them to destroy the few remaining Kyphur outright? Maybe. But I don't think it's that much of a threat to them even if the Bubasti could rescue all of them.
                          It's worth noting that the Setites do not necessarily know that killing the cats will end the Bubasti over time, so from their POV those may be important to the Bubasti only in a cultural sense. And since the Bubasti are still reproducing out there, the FoS have no reason to kill the cats, there is no benefit they can foresee.

                          That's most to say that the Setites keeping the cats isn't any major problem, really. But from this we can also conclude that security for those cats may not be top priority.

                          As for the 6 immortals, things can go in a wild range of ways. Not every Setite is completely loyal to a particular vision of Sutekh, even if they're all religious fanatics. When you teach that your people should corrupt the status quo to achieve freedom from the Aeons, things can get... interesting. Even more so when some of the Setites are the very same thing: enemies turned just for sadistic glee. Heck, we could have Kemintiri going there, fooling her own clan that she is a higher gen Methuselah (she's 4th, she has latitude) and free some of the immortals, out of any reason the ST can concoct considering her combination of madness, intelligence and deep knowledge about those matters.

                          But even if the 6 are currently loyal to the Setites, with a relatively low security it wouldn't be impossible for the Bubasti to abscond a cat or a few and try to start a new lineage of feral Kyphur. This could have happened at any point in history or more than one as long as the Ghouled cats have still some breeding capacity, and then those could start a Revenant lineage out of the Setites' hands.

                          For the Bubasti, and probably for the spirits, a Revenant lineage of kin would still be far better than extinction. Again, the history of the Danislav have a loyal Gaian Incarna accepting Revenants no problem. Despite their Ghoul-like powers they're too distant from the full vampiric condition to be completely shunned by Gaia. As for her other children, that pretty much depends, but the Bubasti situation is dire enough that I can picture some Changers giving this the benefit of the doubt. It is not just a lineage, it is the last remnant of a species that serves Gaia.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            That's not been my interpretation. The Setites know the Bubasti are their enemy and trying to kill them. That's why they wiped out the Kyphur originally. They keep a handful of specimens alive by ghouldom out of typical supervillain sadism. They take pleasure in turning their old enemies into monsters they control, and use it to torment the few homid Bubasti still alive.

                            Occasionally letting a Bubasti know the Kyhpur are alive in some form, and even allowing them to mate, would only be a reward to those Bubasti who are betraying their own kind or performing some other great traitorous service to the Setites. Perhaps these Bubasti are even blood bonded themselves at this point. Who knows? But this clearly isn't a zoo that the Setites keep open for their enemies. And the Bastet breedbrook uses the term mate, not breed. While it's obvious you interpreted that to mean they have children, I assumed they just had sex but without any children resulting.
                            Interesting, this is a legit interpretation that's almost a complete opposite to mine. The problem I see with the ghouled Kyphur being sterile or infertile is that for 2000 years (according to the Breed Book) the only options for the Bubasti to maintain their Feline lineage would be feral cats or cat kinfolk of other tribes, and by now all traces of Kyphur heritage would have vanished. I checked the books I have to compare the info on the motivations of the Setites, and they diverge quite a bit between versions:

                            Breed Book: Kyphurs are kept below Cairo, Memphis, and Giza. Setites use them as trophies / taunts / hostages. There's active conflict between Setites and Bubasti.

                            PG to Changing Breeds: No info on numbers or location. The Setites are using them "as insurance to keep the Bubasti away from vampire affairs". The Bubasti consider using the Ahadi to free their kin.

                            CB20: "A handful" of Kyphur cats. No longer explicitly Setites, "a group of vampires [who] do not know of the ties between a breed and their animal Kinfolk, or they would have killed the ghouled Kyphur long ago."

                            I have to say the CB20 version makes the least sense to me.

                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            The idea that the six elder Khephur are truly immortal, and that they are because they are Revenants is an intriguing idea. But if the khephur are Revenants, doesn't that imply they are servants of the Setites and thus manipulating the Bubasti on their behalf? If not, why not? If they aren't servants of the Setites, how exactly did they get all this vampire blood in them over the years to become Revenants at some point? Also, Revenants aren't eternal. They just age slower and live much longer. To actually become immortal, they'd need real vampire vitae keeping them ghouled (and likely blood bond), but just Revenant vitae. So are the immortal Khepur actual vampires then? Blood bonded Revenants to Setites? Something else?
                            I thought about that. One idea I had was that the immortals have access to an elder Setite in torpor which they use to maintain their ghouldom, or alternatively to a donor from a heretical faction (Serpents of Light).

                            My initial background change was this (complete fiction, no basis in lore, and some hand-waves):

                            After having their animal kin slaughtered and trapped by the Setites, the Bubasti who had been part of the Osirian League turned to the Cult of Isis for help. The plan was to cleanse their kin through rebirth, enact a variation of the Spell of Life ritual and continue their feline line through the last six female Feline-born Bubasti who had escaped the Setites. The spell would cause the six to get pregnant with litters of the now cleansed souls of their ghouled kin. Except, the spell wasn't made for that, and it was flawed- this is the pre-Osiris revision version, which reputedly resulted in creating half-dead things. The Spell used the unfortunate cat-kin as fuel to turn the six Bubasti into immortal beings in all the wrong ways, gathering the essence of the vitae and turning them into unaging ghoul-ish monstrosities, and progenitors of the Revenant line.

                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            Reading the same information as you (presumably, I don't know how many sources are out there referencing the Bubasti. I just have the Breedbrook from 1997, and while I have read it multiple times I'm certainly not an expert on it) I don't see the same clues you do that their original concept would have been as a Revenant.

                            I'd also like to state that while the game lore today assumes Revevants happen if ghouls breed with other ghouls and do so for a long time, this was not the original intention of the game. Revenants were originally created by the Tal'mahe'ra and were a result of the Verbena members of that society experimenting with vitae. But since the games since Revised made a concerted effort to eliminate most references to the other game lines, this is either ignored or forgotten about.
                            The clues I based it on were the ghoul blood, the breeding control enacted by the Khepur, the small size of the tribe, and in a somewhat meta-context the tendency of old (pre-revised) splats to cross over- like for example the Ceilican, It honestly still parses to me like that, even with some good counter-arguments brought up in this thread.

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                            • #15
                              Apologies for the Necro, but I had to get myself reaquainted with the Bubasti and there was something that I remembered rubbed me here wrong. The Immortals in the Yava are not the ghoul cats, it's the Immortal Elders of the Breed, the ones that control the whole "tribe". The ones that keep reincarnating and cannot really die unless they turn over their power to someone else?


                              What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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