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W20: Shattered Dreams and Changing Ways

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  • #16
    @Shattered Dreams
    I don't like the way the Impergium and the War of Rage were presented in revised edition (and W20, I guess, haven't read all but much seemed Copy&Paste). The garou, who all are supposed to be proud of their Ancestors are collectively admitting being wrong - that's the flavour I got out of it and well, it wasn't fitting.
    Also, with the other Breed Books we know, that there is more to the War of Rage than that. I liked Children of Gaia revised's take on the matter, stating that the Children of Gaias crime in the war was to try to make peace and thereby making it all worst - not realising for a long time that Changing Breeds weren't meant to be one happy family. Things might have been different in the Dawn times but the world evolved and they grew apart and that lead to misunderstanding an conflict. Sure pride and prejudice and revenge played a role once the conflict had started, but they alone shouldn't have been the reason for a global conflict. A conflict like this should have arisen from many small incidents that in each area of the large world that gaia is. So all Changing Breeds have a reason personal or close to them that made them feel angry at each other.

    @Changing Ways
    I would like to read this book. I find a lot of lost cub character concepts boring, for they are to much western human, in regards of morale and behaviour. Going in depth with what could be different seems intriguing. I hope for it to be an alternative character design guide with practical tips on how a garou could or should see the world different from a normal human.

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    • #17
      as I don't have much experience with oWoD novels... Are there any books that really play up early Garou life after the first change as horror? Could be fun to see something that focuses on that part of it...especially in the current literary-and-movie environment that's chock full of kids killing each other. I've played first changes (especially for lost cubs) as horror, and Rites of Passage as horror sometimes, but haven't gone further than that for Garou society.

      I have a feeling that newly rited Cliaths from some tribes would get PTSD triggers from Hunger Games.

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      • #18
        @Changing Ways
        Im gonna hate this book soooo much. Not because of itself but what some DMs are gonna use it for "noo, your character shouldn't react that way because blah blah blah", i hate that kind of things as much as that concept that if you are part of a tribe you think react different to some situations by default without regard to what you character is or has experience.

        Im gonna read it and probably like it but man im gonna be piss off when Dm start trying to use it to control RPing

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        • #19
          Pfh, a good ST isn't going to do that during a game. Good tool for running NPCs though and building setting. Great tool for players trying to get into their character more.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Traveller View Post
            as I don't have much experience with oWoD novels... Are there any books that really play up early Garou life after the first change as horror? Could be fun to see something that focuses on that part of it...especially in the current literary-and-movie environment that's chock full of kids killing each other. I've played first changes (especially for lost cubs) as horror, and Rites of Passage as horror sometimes, but haven't gone further than that for Garou society.

            I have a feeling that newly rited Cliaths from some tribes would get PTSD triggers from Hunger Games.
            Rites of Renown is garou-life-as-horror fiction, focusing on the first change through finding a Sept and the Rite of Passage.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              I don't like the way the Impergium and the War of Rage were presented in revised edition (and W20, I guess, haven't read all but much seemed Copy&Paste). The garou, who all are supposed to be proud of their Ancestors are collectively admitting being wrong - that's the flavour I got out of it and well, it wasn't fitting.
              Huh. I would completely disagree. One of the themes that I always thought got underplayed in W:tA back in the day was that the Garou were in many ways their own worst enemy. The plight of the Lupus would be the perfect example. The Garou drilled an almost psychotic level of fear for wolves into the human race (and did so thoroughly enough that it became self-sustaining and systemic, carrying from one generation to the next). The Talons love to blame the humans for all of their woes, but it's sort of like blaming the gun for the murder. In reality, the Garou were the ultimate cause.

              This can be repeated in a whole bunch of other issues. The Impergium was a leading factor in Vampires becoming so inextricably tied to human society. Humankind's extreme disregard for the world surrounding it (to a degree significantly greater than the real world) was also a learned behavior. In short, the Wyrm in many ways wouldn't have nearly as much purchase in the human world if not for the psychic damage caused by the werewolves.

              Now do the werewolves acknowledge any of this? The Talons generally don't, but on the other end of the spectrum, the Children of Gaia believe that that the war against the Wyrm simply cannot ever be won without first winning the war for human hearts -- a struggle that they fear they've already lost due to events thousands of years in the past.

              I for one, like that they're starting to play this aspect up to some degree.
              Originally posted by Lewis View Post
              I'm really looking forward to Changing Ways. One of the things that interests me the most about the W:tA setting is that the society of the Garou is an extremely alien one, hide bound and as fanatical as any real world fundamentalist organisation. Anything that addresses the fact that Garou society is a very different, and actually quite terrible, place, rather than one of pure ecologically minded intentions, is going to make for a far, far richer game.
              I am tempted to draw parallels between the Garou Nation and the Islamic State. When you couple real material-world power to a level of religious zeal that essentially permits and forgives any atrocity no matter how heinous (so long as it is done in the name of God / Gaia), the end result is decidedly not good.
              Last edited by Uniform Two Six; 08-21-2014, 04:22 PM.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Uniform Two Six View Post
                Huh. I would completely disagree. One of the themes that I always thought got underplayed in W:tA back in the day was that the Garou were in many ways their own worst enemy. The plight of the Lupus would be the perfect example. The Garou drilled an almost psychotic level of fear for wolves into the human race (and did so thoroughly enough that it became self-sustaining and systemic, carrying from one generation to the next). The Talons love to blame the humans for all of their woes, but it's sort of like blaming the gun for the murder. In reality, the Garou were the ultimate cause.
                Humans were causing trouble before the Impergium. That's why the Impergium started. The Red Talons wanted to kill all humans right then and there, and they would have been right to rouse up the Ratkin to clamp down harder.

                This can be repeated in a whole bunch of other issues. The Impergium was a leading factor in Vampires becoming so inextricably tied to human society. Humankind's extreme disregard for the world surrounding it (to a degree significantly greater than the real world) was also a learned behavior. In short, the Wyrm in many ways wouldn't have nearly as much purchase in the human world if not for the psychic damage caused by the werewolves.
                If you're playing Werewolf, this doesn't matter as much as the more direct Werewolf-related problems. Vampires are lower-tier Wyrm servants, ones that verge on being dupes rather than knowing and complicit.

                Now do the werewolves acknowledge any of this? The Talons generally don't, but on the other end of the spectrum, the Children of Gaia believe that that the war against the Wyrm simply cannot ever be won without first winning the war for human hearts -- a struggle that they fear they've already lost due to events thousands of years in the past.

                I for one, like that they're starting to play this aspect up to some degree.

                I am tempted to draw parallels between the Garou Nation and the Islamic State. When you couple real material-world power to a level of religious zeal that essentially permits and forgives any atrocity no matter how heinous (so long as it is done in the name of God / Gaia), the end result is decidedly not good.
                It's actually been played up quite a great deal. One can hardly go a book without at least one character or passage fatalistically bemoaning something related to it. It's in the background of everything and displayed with the Lost Breeds. What it isn't is the only thing that the books dwell on, because that would get rather boring.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                  Humans were causing trouble before the Impergium. That's why the Impergium started. The Red Talons wanted to kill all humans right then and there, and they would have been right to rouse up the Ratkin to clamp down harder.
                  "Humans causing trouble" prior to the Impergium (at least according to the Garou) tend to fall into two basic categories:
                  1. Humans caused the extinction of the wooly mammoth.
                  2. Humans began using the practice of agriculture (and thus violating Gaia's plan).

                  First off, in the real world there's all sorts of disagreement on what really did in the mammoth. Without going into too much detail, one of the prevailing theories as to what the proximal cause was, was a plague of some sort, as it turns out that isolated populations of mammoths actually survived (alongside humans, I might add) until as recently as 2,000 BCE (4,000 years later than the very latest of the stated possible start dates for the Impergium). So most likely, the mammoth went extinct as a result of an array of contributing causes, of which human predation was only one. But, this is the World of Darkness, not the real world, so let's hypothetically assume that the humans were entirely at fault. More on this in a minute:

                  As far as the rise of agriculture is concerned, the werewolves' narrative isn't internally consistent, and they tend to waffle on whether agriculture was a thing before or as a result of, the Impergium (this distinction tends to change depending upon what point they happen to be trying to make at the time). Nonetheless, one of the claims is that the humans were fiddling with agriculture before the Impergium and the Impergium was a preemptive attempt to knock that behavior down... This narrative also concludes that things were going just fine until those darn humans struck their deadly alliance with the Weaver and screwed everything up. If only the humans had remained hunter/gatherers (as Gaia obviously intended), then their populations wouldn't have expanded, everything would have been fine and the Garou wouldn't have had to resort to the Impergium in the first place...

                  ...Only, exactly who was supposedly hunting the mammoths to extinction, then? The Gaia-blessed hunter/gatherer humans, or the evil, Weaver-tainted agriculture-practicing humans? Whoops.

                  One of the less popular theories (whispered by the Children of Gaia) is that the Impergium started as a result of a conflict between werewolves over breeding rights. The Red Talons also state that the domestication of the dog (in the real world approximately 12,000 BCE) was an affront that they could no longer ignore. And the Silver Fangs and Black Furies (as well as a few others) list a general displeasure among the spirits that humans were not conforming to the ages-old convention of Darwin-esque survival of the fittest. In short, these theories suggest that the Garou started the Impergium, not so much because the humans were "causing trouble", but rather due to the prejudices of the werewolves themselves. Given what later happened with the Garou (War of Rage, War of Tears, the conquest of the New World -- including the wars upon the Wendigo, Uktena, and the so-called Second War of Rage against the native Fera in North America, the annihilation of the Camazotz, etc.) this seems much more likely. Basically, genocidal purges are what happens when you take arrogant douchebags, give them a religion that justifies any atrocity (no matter how vile) as "serving Gaia", and just for good measure, throw in superpowers including regeneration so that they're practically unkillable by mere mortals.

                  All of this also has yet to touch upon the basic problem that regardless of justification, the Impergium still drilled into humans that wolves are dangerous and should be eradicated, as well as fear of the natural world (which is why in the World of Darkness, the environmental movement we see in the real world, failed to get off the ground in the first place -- humans in the WoD instinctively just don't care). The werewolves created all of that.
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                  If you're playing Werewolf, this doesn't matter as much as the more direct Werewolf-related problems. Vampires are lower-tier Wyrm servants, ones that verge on being dupes rather than knowing and complicit.
                  And yet, the rise of the vampires are stated all over the place as a significant reason that the Wyrm has such a strong hold over humans in general, and the urban environment in particular -- because the vampires have a great deal of material power and influence. It is also the primary justification of the werewolves of why they "had to" destroy the First City.
                  Last edited by Uniform Two Six; 08-22-2014, 01:52 PM.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Uniform Two Six View Post
                    "Humans causing trouble" prior to the Impergium (at least according to the Garou) tend to fall into two basic categories:
                    1. Humans caused the extinction of the wooly mammoth.
                    2. Humans began using the practice of agriculture (and thus violating Gaia's plan).
                    Cutting you off here because I didn't mention those things as such and the real world has plenty well proven that humans would cause extinctions far and wide, Impergium or not. What the Garou were concerned over, as always, were new developments of technology. Artificial selection of the wolf into the dog occurred, at the latest, 15k years ago, and I'd imagine that werewolves, particularly lupus werewolves, would have been quite... put out with the alterations that humans made to their kind, as well as the methods used to do so. It would likely have made them so mad that they took what the Ratkin were supposed to do, ran with it, and then went far overboard with it. Extinctions would have been accelerant to Rage, but not the root cause of it.

                    And yet, the rise of the vampires are stated all over the place as a significant reason that the Wyrm has such a strong hold over humans in general, and the urban environment in particular -- because the vampires have a great deal of material power and influence. It is also the primary justification of the werewolves of why they "had to" destroy the First City.
                    It only ever gets mentioned because Werewolf had to share some kind of vague theoretical space with Vampire. And even then, it's something that gets fast-forwarded past, as opposed to the Talons of the Wyrm reaching into the world, Wars of Rage, fall of the White Howlers, and numerous other factors. Again, from the real world, we see that humans started living in cities anyway, mostly due to convenience, social influence and a number of factors that don't involve being hunted by werewolves for several millennia. Because they don't really exist. The WoD just makes the shadows darker.

                    Garou would have gathered to destroy the First City without vampires, because it doubtlessly would have been full of Conan-like cults to evil deities trying to use sorcery to summon demons and gain power (as the sorcerers saw it, and don't think that I'm talking about Mage here). Said cults would have definitely been duped by Banes swarming around them and convincing them that everything was being done for some good purpose. And then fomori would have ensued, as the first in a long line of bad shit that Wyrm corruption makes possible, only with a much more mystical bent than one typically seen today with toxic chemicals becoming ubiquitous.

                    Humans can't be completely blameless in this scenario, as the real world shows. It doesn't take fear of werewolves for someone to succumb to greed and clear out massive tracts of prime wild habitat because it would bring them wealth, and skimp on every possible expense because that would bring them more wealth. The WoD just adds a bit more destructive apathy onto things with the gothic-punk framing. Less humans care, because they fear. It's not the same thing as all evils existing entirely because of said fear.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      ...and the real world has plenty well proven that humans would cause extinctions far and wide, Impergium or not...
                      But not for another 7,000 years (at a minimum, depending upon what the date for the Impergium turns out to be). The Garou couldn't have forseen the ultimate outcome (vast extinctions at the humans' hands). As of the point at which the Impergium kicked off, the humans hadn't done anything yet to justify what the Garou did.
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      What the Garou were concerned over, as always, were new developments of technology...
                      Which, far from retarding such development, the Impergium spurred.
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      Artificial selection of the wolf into the dog occurred, at the latest, 15k years ago, and I'd imagine that werewolves, particularly lupus werewolves, would have been quite... put out with the alterations that humans made to their kind, as well as the methods used to do so...
                      And since the domestication of the dog almost certainly stemmed from wolves "self-domesticating" by turning from predatory practices to scavenging from human camps (this behavior has been observed in wolves in Yellowstone and is referred to as "habituation"), it would reinforce the idea that the werewolves started the Impergium more out of their own prejudice than anything else.
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      Garou would have gathered to destroy the First City without vampires, because it doubtlessly would have been full of Conan-like cults to evil deities trying to use sorcery to summon demons and gain power...
                      And why would the humans of the First City have been willingly conspiring with such entities? Possibly as a means of defense against the awful things lurking just outside the walls?
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      Humans can't be completely blameless in this scenario, as the real world shows...
                      Actually, yes. They can be. With regard to the Impergium (as stated above), they had not yet done anything to deserve their fate. First off, as the World of Darkness is not the real world, then you have to take into account what effect the other Fera might have had upon the human race had the Garou not interfered. Some of those changers (most notably the Gurahl and the Apis) had much closer and friendly ties to the humans, and there's simply no knowing what the WoD would have turned out to be had the Garou not driven a hereditary fear into humankind (not to mention decimating one of the above races and exterminating the other, thereby leaving humankind without any supernatural allies or guides). The fate of our real world is unrelated to that of the WoD, and I challenge any assumption that the world that surrounds us has any bearing upon how the WoD would have turned out without Garou interference. The real world simply lacks any of the other supernatural features of the WoD, so it's unknowable. Finally, even with their (supposedly) wizened elder shamans, even with their spirit allies, even if they KNEW that the world would turn out disastrously if humans were left to their own devices -- even the Garou don't have the moral right to punish somebody for something that they haven't done yet.

                      I posit that that one act of thoughtless hubris, of selfish, stupid arrogance, utterly devoid of compassion or respect (nor Honor, nor Wisdom), while it may not have caused human greed, or all the environmental damage humans have wrought -- probably did feed the Wyrm, and ultimately have left the Garou, and the whole world, on the brink of disaster.
                      Last edited by Uniform Two Six; 08-23-2014, 04:16 AM.


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                      • #26
                        Here's some suggests/stuff I want to see and don't want to see in Changing Ways about metis. Rage Across the World all ready did Lupus well.

                        -Less whiny and strange narrator.
                        IF there even is a narrator, please do not have him/her pull these kinds of lines:

                        Never mind that if I am fighting beside those outside my pack, when the battle is done, my wounds get tended last, my 20 kills are less acknowledged than the lupus' ragabash's five. And my tales are sounded only after my packmates call for my words
                        GoTC,p.91

                        I like to note that the Metis being the narrator? Athro Galliard Child of Gaia most likely from a Coggie sept. Metis or no metis, but once you hit athro, your wounds better be tended fast and your songs heard. The book is full of these minor lines that don't really amount to anything but making the treatment of metis a bit too overblown. Especially as this metis is not a Fianna but a Child of Gaia whose thing is that metis are treated well.

                        -Good tribal descriptions that take note on the tribal culture.
                        Most Guardians of the Caerns descs for metis in tribes are good. But then there are the non-desc of Wendigo (the metis was just sent to Coggies) or the utterly useless Silver Fang one that just enforces that the ruling tribe is stupid and/or crazy.

                        -New and interesting deformities
                        There is a lot of cool ways deformities can manifest beyond the typical horns/scales/hooves and the ever popular albino. There have been lists of great deformities all ready, but more would be cool.
                        Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 08-23-2014, 01:28 PM.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Uniform Two Six View Post
                          But not for another 7,000 years (at a minimum, depending upon what the date for the Impergium turns out to be). The Garou couldn't have forseen the ultimate outcome (vast extinctions at the humans' hands). As of the point at which the Impergium kicked off, the humans hadn't done anything yet to justify what the Garou did.

                          Which, far from retarding such development, the Impergium spurred.

                          And since the domestication of the dog almost certainly stemmed from wolves "self-domesticating" by turning from predatory practices to scavenging from human camps (this behavior has been observed in wolves in Yellowstone and is referred to as "habituation"), it would reinforce the idea that the werewolves started the Impergium more out of their own prejudice than anything else.
                          I already mentioned Garou being wigged out by domestication. Domestication makes it impossible for a wolf to be a werewolf. It also happens on a time scale where the Garou might not have realized what was going on until it happened, thus adding to the impact of the shock.

                          And why would the humans of the First City have been willingly conspiring with such entities? Possibly as a means of defense against the awful things lurking just outside the walls?
                          Because they thought that they could use them to their advantage? Not even against Garou. People in cities don't drop their rivalries and hatreds against each other by any means. Even without a fear of werewolves, there's still the possibility of trying to get the bloodsuckers to eat people you don't like in exchange for service, or to steal their power so that you can eat people you don't like and lord over everyone. And it's not like the leadership of early cities would have been composed of pleasant people, either. Their positions in society were built on the wealth of those under them.

                          Actually, yes. They can be. With regard to the Impergium (as stated above), they had not yet done anything to deserve their fate. First off, as the World of Darkness is not the real world, then you have to take into account what effect the other Fera might have had upon the human race had the Garou not interfered. Some of those changers (most notably the Gurahl and the Apis) had much closer and friendly ties to the humans, and there's simply no knowing what the WoD would have turned out to be had the Garou not driven a hereditary fear into humankind (not to mention decimating one of the above races and exterminating the other, thereby leaving humankind without any supernatural allies or guides). The fate of our real world is unrelated to that of the WoD, and I challenge any assumption that the world that surrounds us has any bearing upon how the WoD would have turned out without Garou interference. The real world simply lacks any of the other supernatural features of the WoD, so it's unknowable. Finally, even with their (supposedly) wizened elder shamans, even with their spirit allies, even if they KNEW that the world would turn out disastrously if humans were left to their own devices -- even the Garou don't have the moral right to punish somebody for something that they haven't done yet.

                          I posit that that one act of thoughtless hubris, of selfish, stupid arrogance, utterly devoid of compassion or respect (nor Honor, nor Wisdom), while it may not have caused human greed, or all the environmental damage humans have wrought -- probably did feed the Wyrm, and ultimately have left the Garou, and the whole world, on the brink of disaster.
                          No, the goings-on of the real world are the only reason that W:TA even existed in the first place - people being angry about the bad shit that goes on and venting in the form of a fictional setting. The previous development demanded tragedy, and so there's an element of the Garou not acting in a manner that actually solves problems. But humans are definitely a giant problem on their own. One of the main points of an essay in the 2nd edition player's guide was that the Wyrm doesn't make anyone do anything evil, because it doesn't need to. It then cites real world events to back this point up. The nature of humans in the WoD is the same as in the real world. Hence, the humans are not blameless in this struggle, even as the Garou dug a hole and kept digging.

                          What's more, you keep bringing up points that undermine various "speculative" parts of the W:TA narrative yourself. If you don't want to have to deal with real world details, don't try to use them in your argument.
                          Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 08-23-2014, 02:21 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                            If only one could get a wolf into a functional MRI to compare with the dog results.
                            There is a lot of pretty good observational and experimental research out there. More on wolves than dogs, really.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              No, the goings-on of the real world are the only reason that W:TA even existed in the first place - people being angry about the bad shit that goes on and venting in the form of a fictional setting... One of the main points of an essay in the 2nd edition player's guide was that the Wyrm doesn't make anyone do anything evil, because it doesn't need to. It then cites real world events to back this point up. The nature of humans in the WoD is the same as in the real world. Hence, the humans are not blameless in this struggle... What's more, you keep bringing up points that undermine various "speculative" parts of the W:TA narrative yourself. If you don't want to have to deal with real world details, don't try to use them in your argument.
                              Okay. I get what you're saying there. I still think that the intimate relationship between the Gurahl, the Apis, and the humans would have plausibly changed the course of events had the Garou not interfered. However, you make good points, and you're right that I can't have my cake and eat it too with regard to using real world anecdotes in a WoD setting. Therefore, I reverse my earlier statement and concede the point that left to their own devices, the humans are largely responsible (even in a moral sense) for the state of affairs in the WoD -- in the physical plane. Ecological damage, extinction of species (with the exception of wolves -- which I still hold is more complicated an issue in the WoD), criminality, greed, etcetera; these they hold the lion's share of blame. These are not the same thing as Wyrm-Taint. That's something purely spiritual in nature. So I would make the following claims:

                              1. Wyrm-Taint. Being purely spiritual in nature, the humans are largely absolved of responsibility even if the Wyrm feeds off much of their activities. When the Garou terrorized the humans during the Impergium and later deprived them of their spirit-guides in the form of the Gurahl and the Apis, they effectively cut them off from having any meaningful interaction with -- even knowledge of -- the spirit world. In this case, ignorance is an excuse. The Garou could have no right to expect the humans to avoid doing things that aided and fed the Wyrm in a spiritual sense if the Garou deprived them of having any concept of what that meant (reinforced to an extent by the Veil, incidentally). The only responsibility that the humans would have would be actions that had a direct cause-effect relationship in the physical plane -- and even then much of that would be dependent upon prevailing cultural norms of the time.

                              2. Fate of wolves in the WoD. The humans would be partly to blame for the sad state of affairs regarding wild wolves in the WoD, since wolves have experienced a sharp decline in the real world. However, it has been repeated multiple times that the status of the wild wolf is one of the areas where the real world and the World of Darkness differ drastically. In the real world, the wolf (Gray Wolf, that is) is listed as threatened. In the World of Darkness, it's teetering on the brink of extinction. In our world the wolf is making a slow but steady comeback in select areas due to widespread environmental concern, and governmental action -- not perfect, but it's something. In the WoD, none of that ever materialized, and humans almost universally view wolves as dangerous and evil. The Garou are, if not entirely at fault, they are largely at fault. There's simply no way that the Impergium didn't play a pretty major role there.

                              3. Vampires. In the real world (once upon a time at least) humans really did believe in vampires. Not just crazy people -- everybody. Moreover, they were not viewed in anything resembling a positive light. Vampires were monsters. So in the World of Darkness, where vampires are more than mere superstition, what could have caused the vampires to achieve a toehold in human cultures that at the time were highly superstitious (and as the real world has shown, in the absence of werewolves and their Impergium and whatnot, would have been feared, hated and hunted with religious zeal)? I contend that in the WoD, the vampires (particularly with their penchant for encouraging human population growth and technological development), actually provided a sort of symbiotic function in that they were actually a credible defense against werewolves to a degree. Thusly, I contend that the rise of the Vampires is something that the werewolves are partly to largely responsible for. That's a contention that is doubly damning given how Wyrm-Tainted the Vampires tend to be -- particularly according to the Garou.


                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              Humans were causing trouble before the Impergium. That's why the Impergium started. The Red Talons wanted to kill all humans right then and there, and they would have been right to rouse up the Ratkin to clamp down harder.
                              Question: I know we've been over this, but for clarification, is it your meaning that the Garou were justified in starting the Impergium? If so, how do you square that with the fact that humans hadn't actually done anything yet, and any meaningful ecological damage would, in any event, not be even within the humans' power for thousands and thousands of years? Moreover, even with spirits (like Phoenix) giving them a window on the future, how could they ever be justified in taking vengeance against defenseless peasants who would be thousands of years removed from the humans who would ultimately become responsible? Can someone seriously be responsible for the actions of another person who hasn't even been conceived yet?
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              I already mentioned Garou being wigged out by domestication. Domestication makes it impossible for a wolf to be a werewolf. It also happens on a time scale where the Garou might not have realized what was going on until it happened, thus adding to the impact of the shock.
                              Okay, the Garou (particularly the Lupus -- and especially the Red Talons) were "wigged-out" by the domestication of the dog, and taken by surprise at how quickly it happened.

                              Does that make it something that justified the Garou going nuts over and slaughtering thousands of otherwise innocent people, especially since it was probably less something that the humans set out to do, and more something that just sort of happened?
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              Because they thought that they could use them to their advantage? Not even against Garou. People in cities don't drop their rivalries and hatreds against each other by any means. Even without a fear of werewolves, there's still the possibility of trying to get the bloodsuckers to eat people you don't like in exchange for service, or to steal their power so that you can eat people you don't like and lord over everyone. And it's not like the leadership of early cities would have been composed of pleasant people, either. Their positions in society were built on the wealth of those under them.
                              The rise (and demise) of the First City is generally held to be about contemporary with the close of the Impergium and is generally seen as a sort of "last hurrah" for the Garou who advocated the Impergium. The humans have just started to crawl out from under the vicious bloodletting of the werewolves, the Veil has yet to fully settle in, and they're madly doing anything and everything in their power to amass supernatural allies and magical power, and you seriously feel that fear of the werewolves isn't at play here? You don't find the timing of all this just the slightest bit suspicious? It's the tail end of the Impergium (and the War of Rage which also probably wasn't particularly pleasant for the humans), but it has to be humans simply being dicks to each other? Come on. Really?
                              Last edited by Uniform Two Six; 08-24-2014, 04:20 AM.


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                              • #30
                                Are you guys seriously arguing over the specifics of a history that has only been handed down via oral tradition? Of course its going to be a confusing mess with each tribe having its own "real truth"

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