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Some fetish questions

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  • #31
    Of the top of my head... there is a bag that allows you to take items with you into the umbra without dedicating them and it shapeshifts with you. There are klaives. There are devilwhips (which are normal weapons that become animated on activation). I'm sure I could dig up a couple more examples with the books at hand.

    In setting there is also a number of fetishes that are regularly used by kinfolk, and most kinfolk don't have gnosis.


    What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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    • #32
      For the Fang Dagger:

      "...After striking an opponent, the werewolf can activate the weapon, causing it to “bite” deeper into the wound. This doubles the number of successes on the damage roll, before soak. The damage is aggravated."- W20 Core Page 224

      As for the crunch part of the Klaive:

      "The difficulty to attack with a klaive is 6, and it inflicts Strength + 2 aggravated damage. This damage is silver, and therefore unsoakable to werewolves and most Fera."- W20 core, Page 225

      So from how I read the stuff I grabbed, according to cannon, a Klaive must be activated (which does suck), but once activated its good for the scene, while the Fang Dagger must be activated with EACH successful strike (so unless you're a Glass Walker Elder, no Rage for you)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by PaulMorningstar View Post
        Okay, but to my opinion Klaive is such way that it deals Aggr Damage always is some kind of a exception to the rule that each Fetish needs to be activated (according to the rules in W20 at least). I don't know many other Fetishes working ALWAYS...all the others have their abilities woven around activation.
        This provides for me two problems (and my Pack has a person with Fang Dagger and second one with Klaive): basic Klaive is pretty much weak compared to Fang Dagger, better to use Claws or Bite than Klaive with or without activation and only thing working for it is the silver. Second problem is the Grand Klaive, because by analogy it deals Aggr each time. This means someone wielding Grand Klaive can use Rage and deals aggravated damage with Str +5 (in Crinos form). This means that there are few enemies able to withstand even Cliaths in Crinos, armed with such weapon - no soak at all in most cases, pure damage output.
        And this is why I asked this question.
        Part of the Klaives appeal (as opposed to claws or teeth) is that you can wield it in Homid or Glabro and deal Agg. And having it always be on balances it somewhat compared to a Fang Dagger. The Fang Dagger can also only be used once a turn. And if the Fang Dagger does only lethal when not activated, that further helps balance the 2. As per few enemies being able to withstand an assault from a Crinos wielding a Grand Klaive, I don't see the argument. It's a level 5 fetish for a reason. Most level 5 fetishes being swung by a Crinos tear through enemies.
        But even if you rule that the Klaive needs to be activated and stays up for the scene, the fact that it's still silver makes it worth it. And most Garou, by the time they've made rank 1 should know when combat is close and activate it then. It's not like fetish activation is some grand thing, you can do so with just a moments concentration. You don't need to hold the Klaive up and yell [He-Man style] or anything.
        So yea, for pure single powered attacks, the Fang Dagger is awesome, there isn't a question about that. But a Klaive wielding Garou tends to have more steady damage output with extra actions considered.


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        • #34
          You can force the spirit to work for you (after having stolen it) but it may end up angering the spirit which might make it cursed.
          I'd have to go look at Hammer & Klaive again because I think there was a lot of information in that book, that may not specifically give rules for a lot of these questions, might give enough lore/background that decisions / house rules could be created.

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          • #35
            I wouldn't worry too much about justifying home rules though, since they're home rules. They're meant to make the game more fun for a local group. Personally I have no problem with a klaive being essentially always active, since klaives are meant to be just that special. Its not like making a fang dagger which you attack at a diff 4, and can do double damage as being active for an entire scene. That instead would just break the bank (even if it was a lvl 6 fetish. Heck the closest thing to that is the Spear of Mokole-mbembe which is a spear that you wield at a +1 diff compared to other war spears, and while it counts as gold and silver, doing double dmg, it also doesn't say that it does agg to critters not allergic to those metals).

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            • #36
              Klaives I've always seen as always active. There are benefits to a Klaive, for example Renown for owning one, really handy for killing BSDs, Klaivaskar used to be a dandy advantage too but is sadly missing from W20. Also the often overlooked benefit of Parrying.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                As per few enemies being able to withstand an assault from a Crinos wielding a Grand Klaive, I don't see the argument. It's a level 5 fetish for a reason. Most level 5 fetishes being swung by a Crinos tear through enemies.
                Problem with Grand Klaive overwhelmingly powerful is that you can have it as a starting Cliath, no brain nor real muscules whatsoever and be able to deal in such manner with rather big guys, Elders shmelders - spend a lot of Rage and don't miss. Maybe Luna's Armor or armor type Gift will help, otherwise in homid or Crinos he does not soak the damage. Then there are all the other supernatural or ghost, dead in one round which is rather anticlimatic. And for me, again, this is only observation, not many Fetishes even on level 5 grant that much of an edge.

                "So from how I read the stuff I grabbed, according to cannon, a Klaive must be activated (which does suck), but once activated its good for the scene, while the Fang Dagger must be activated with EACH successful strike (so unless you're a Glass Walker Elder, no Rage for you)"

                It is a nice idea for the Klaive, to activate once and then keep working for the whole scene, but still - this gives me trouble with Grand Klaive. But it is a better solution than moaning and finding arguments against it so I will use it.

                Thanks.

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                • #38
                  If you're a Cliath with a Grand Klaive you sure as hell better be ready to live up to the prestige of that weapon. Sure you can start with one as a character but you need to be pretty impressive (or isolated) to keep it, a Grand Klaive isn't just 5 points on a character sheet, it's a paid for Plot Device if ever there was one. In fact most 5 point Fetishes are. Again with the loss of Klaivaskar, the skill, (although there is no reason that you cannot simple pluck the rules from one of the Players Guides) the enforcement of Klaive importance and ownership etc is actually lessened. The lore of Klaivakar, small a segment as it was, was a beautiful thing tying the Skill aspect to the Rank of the Klaivaskar and the Lore of Klaives. Plus the manuevers and Klaive duelling was pretty cool and if you wanted to bear a Klaive you REALLY wanted to learn Klaivaskar.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
                    If you're a Cliath with a Grand Klaive you sure as hell better be ready to live up to the prestige of that weapon. Sure you can start with one as a character but you need to be pretty impressive (or isolated) to keep it, a Grand Klaive isn't just 5 points on a character sheet, it's a paid for Plot Device if ever there was one. In fact most 5 point Fetishes are. Again with the loss of Klaivaskar, the skill, (although there is no reason that you cannot simple pluck the rules from one of the Players Guides) the enforcement of Klaive importance and ownership etc is actually lessened. The lore of Klaivakar, small a segment as it was, was a beautiful thing tying the Skill aspect to the Rank of the Klaivaskar and the Lore of Klaives. Plus the manuevers and Klaive duelling was pretty cool and if you wanted to bear a Klaive you REALLY wanted to learn Klaivaskar.


                    I agree 100%. If the GM has a problem with a Claith having a grand klaive, the GM shouldn't let it happen. Craft a huge story around earning that klaive, so the character doesn't receive it until you feel they are at a power level where they deserve that out put in dmg.

                    This also reminds me of when I played D&D, my GM had a policy...he didn't use vorpal if we didn't use vorpal. What I'm saying is, remember....Black Spiral Dancers have Klaives too.....

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                    • #40
                      They get nasty bane klaives, and other fun things (sexually imbued bane ridden snakes... damn hammer and klaive is an odd read at times). That power level deal is spot on though. It's why i'm making my wife work for her ideal fetish. She's going to need... 4 more fetish' (at least), the help of her pack, and possibly a hostile invasion into a caern, via moonbridge. If it goes that route... well the storm eater likes to follow those. Not that a spiral gives too many shits about wyrm spirits following em.


                      WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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                      • #41
                        I do not have a problem with plot or how it affects stories I tell. But this is the problem with Klaive I talking about - I have to say things like "Black Spiral Dancers have Klaives of their own". I'm not racing with my players. Problem is that the game rules changed a bit, adding damage dice depending on how well character hits the enemy. And while it works okay (slows down fights when the dice start to roll unfortunately), things like Grand Klaive push the combat into samurai duel. One swing of the blade and the best of the best is dead. Device such as this worries me, I haven't introduced the Grand Klaive in my game yet, because I worry that it will be too powerful. You have Strength in Crinos round 7+, Dex + Melee 6 or better, + 5 DMG. This generates around od 15 damage dice of unsoakable damage with one swing, and a little protection against that.

                        But like I said - for now I don't have that problem

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                        • #42
                          Its not all that much, a Thunderwyrm can reasonably take several hits from a Grand Klaive. It's only a one shot kill in Garou vs Garou and then only maybe. Against other things Garou are often dropping things in one or two hits anyway (most Fomori and Banes cannot soak Agg and even when they do it's a futile gesture against Garou damage pools). Being able to kill things Really Well is part of whats handy about being a Werewolf.

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                          • #43
                            What exactly is the point of Phoebe's Veil? It's one of the most broken fetishes.

                            Were it designed for scouting, 1 minute per success is not nearly enough time for reasonable scouting. If it's designed for combat, 1 minute per success covers most combat scenes, but the thing seems ungodly powerful, as enemies can't see, hear, or smell you, only responding to touch. I've had people argue about how an enemy can even attack, given that, and it's a fair question often. It does not talk about the penalties one faces attacking the bearer. It seems designed purely for assassination and easy killing of enemies. Yet the spirit in it is a spirit of a chameleon or illusion. Can it be seen through by various gifts and magical senses? I hate this fetish, with a passion, and nothing's ever been done to clarify it.

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                            • #44
                              Considering it specifies that it only works on mundane creatures, spirits, and technology, it doesn't work on.... a lot of things a Garou might fight.

                              It's best for infiltration. Get past external cameras, the normal guards, and use a Gift to disable the basic internal security, and then go to worry about the stronger enemies without having lost any resources to the mooks.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
                                Its not all that much, a Thunderwyrm can reasonably take several hits from a Grand Klaive. It's only a one shot kill in Garou vs Garou and then only maybe. Against other things Garou are often dropping things in one or two hits anyway (most Fomori and Banes cannot soak Agg and even when they do it's a futile gesture against Garou damage pools). Being able to kill things Really Well is part of whats handy about being a Werewolf.
                                Possessed addressed that Fomori who are semi-combatant should soak agg damage against 8 and full-combat fomori should soak it normally. Agg damage is soaked normally by spirits, including banes. Never read anything to the contrary.

                                So, I agree with PaulMorningstar, silver weaponry simply is unfortunate in the game, since it is unsoakable. Allowing for a soak against 8 seems to be a good choice to tone done the fact that every damage is a lost health level.
                                Another thing is the additional action with rage. If your enemy doesn't have an action to dodge anymore, the number of successes in the attack directly go into damage. Instant kill.


                                Heavy Arms
                                You are right. I never realised that the fetish is only protecting from mundane beings. And in W20 it only works at night, for some reason.

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