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Do 1's cancel on rage/frenzy rolls.

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  • Do 1's cancel on rage/frenzy rolls.

    I looked at Revised and W20 and I can't seem to find the answer to the question, "Do 1's cancel on frenzy rolls?".

    They don't cancel on damage or soak but they do cancel on almost every other roll.
    There are rules for botching Willpower and Gnosis rolls so that means 1's cancel on those rolls, but nothing on Rage.
    In general I say "If you can't botch then 1's shouldn't cancel." and I'm not sure what botching a frenzy roll would do.
    BUT there are rage rolls to activate gifts, which you ?should? be able to botch.

    Rolls in question:

    Rage roll to active gift:
    Rage roll for frenzy:
    Rage roll to remain active:

  • #2
    I don't remember seeing anything in the rules-as-written about those rolls being different, though that does surprise me a little. Can't think of anything that botching a frenzy roll would do though.

    In practice I think I would houserule that 1s don't cancel on remaining active, because that's just a dick move, and saving a PC from death with the most minor of fudging the dice seems like fair generosity. Frenzy, maybe, depending on player reaction. If someone said "Awww, a 1 knocked me from four successes to three", actually wanted to frenzy for whatever reason, I'd probably let them have it, just to represent some tiny amount of self control--not enough to need a Willpower point, but enough to let them go over the edge if they're already right there.

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    • #3
      Wait 1s don't cancel on damage and soak?


      WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post
        Wait 1s don't cancel on damage and soak?
        Nope, not in any edition of any oWoD game. At least I'm pretty darn sure that's always been the rule in Werewolf.

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        • #5
          Ffffff.... So they cancel on accuracy rolls and thTs it for combat effects? What about reflexive healing?


          WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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          • #6
            Yes 1's cancel on reflexive healing. If you botch you can't heal reflexively for the rest of the scene.

            I view it as accuracy you can mess up on, but once you hit, damage and soak is just "physics" or a natural course based on how well the accuracy went, therefore YOU can't fail miserably on it.

            I agree with 1's shouldn't cancel on remaining active rolls so the players end up more bad @$$ and I dislike killing characters unless they really deserve it or it is a major story point.
            For gifts the botch effect can be based on the gift, which makes sense.

            But still leaves rage roll for frenzy >.<
            I'm leaning towards having 1's not cancel just because it doesn't make sense what a botch would do.

            Get more angry? (This doesn't make sense because you botched the attempt to contact your rage.)
            Get calmer? (This would be like losing a rage point [like losing a temp willpower when you botch a willpower roll] and also doesn't really make sense)
            ....
            ....

            Maybe 1's shouldn't cancel.
            Last edited by Penguinsama; 01-20-2015, 07:23 PM.

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            • #7
              Actually the rule say you can't botch a damage or soak roll. It doesn't say anything about ones cancelling successes. Just because you can't botch a roll doesn't mean ones don't take away successes, it just means you can't botch. You can still fail like normal.


              Reboot

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              • #8
                This is interesting. I'm very certain that 2nd Edition didn't allow subtracting 1s from damage or soak rolls; don't have a book handy, but several wikis and calculators reference this. But I can't find that rule in W20, and in fact page 431 on the fomori power Body Expansion references botching a soak roll.

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                • #9
                  I found the explanation of the rules in w20 a little convoluted at time. Trying to figure out how combat works was a bear.


                  WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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                  • #10
                    Botching a frenzy roll should be possible. I only add this because the Gurahl breed book makes reference to it. Gurahl can only enter Thrall of the Wyrm if they have multiple botches on their Frenzy check. This rule has been changed for W20 though, now requiring them to get 8 successes instead.


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                    • #11
                      Botching a Frenzy roll leads to a Fox Frenzy where the Garou instead of flipping out and shredding stuff instead obeys the Flight reflex instead of the Fight reflex and flees the source of the frenzy.

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                      • #12
                        I think that foxy frenzy rule is from like 1st edition or something because it is not in W20, Revised, or 2nd edition.

                        Given the way botches are explained it seems counter intuitive to have dice rolls where 1's cancel but you can't botch.
                        Also given that it already is frustrating and unrealistic for a gun shot against a garou that has +5 success from an amazing sniper shot to roll 0 damage (before soak) I think letting 1's cancel on damage would just exacerbate that issue.

                        Also given that soaking is a reflexive thing that is basically your body's innate ability to resist damage how would a botched soak roll be described?
                        Your bones try to resist the incoming force of the hammer blow and fail so badly that they shatter instead of break?
                        Your body tries to resist the damage of that bullet flying into your upper abdominal area, but it fails so bad the bullet goes to your heart?
                        Seems a little weird.

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                        • #13
                          The botch rule is gone from W20 but the Fox Frenzy is still there, given the nature of the Rage roll though it'd be weird to not Berserk frenzy on the 4Suxx. Haven't checked in my revised book, butive never owned a earlier edition.

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                          • #14
                            Given all the listed stimuli that would lead to a rage roll for frenzy, there are very few situations where berserk wouldn't be just as good an option as fox frenzy.
                            It isn't clear what factors into the decision of which type of frenzy happens. Is it the character? Would a pissed off, kick @$$ Fenrir when being taunted by a superior enemy or feeling helpless (by superior enemy) or large quantities of silver, etc be more likely to Berserk frenzy over a Ragabash CoG who tries to help homeless and under represented people?

                            These are the listed stimuli and what I think makes sense as the reaction:
                            Embarrassment or humiliation - Berserk on the embarrassing person (or if a thing the people around though fox frenzy MAYBE in this case).
                            Any strong emotion (lust, rage, envy) - Berserk (why would you run away from any of these?)
                            Extreme Hunger - Berserk (kill it and eat it??)
                            Confinement - Berserk to get out
                            Helplessness - Berserk because you have no other options (if the helplessness is trying to kill a superior enemy MAYBE fox here).
                            Being taunted by a superior enemy - Berserk on said enemy (Perhaps fox here).
                            Large quantities of silver in the area - This one seems like Fox is probably the default.
                            Being wounded - Berserk on the wounding creature (though perhaps Fox).
                            Seeing a packmate wounded - Berserk on the wounding creature.

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                            • #15
                              What about 10s during frenzy checks? Do they count twice? Or does that only apply to something that has specialties?

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