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  • Talons of the Wyrm

    In case of a Apocalypse chronicle started by the Talons of the Wyrm, how would they be? What would they look alike? Game stats, anyone?
    Are they stronger than Antediluvians?
    Has anybody used these guys on a chronicle before?

  • #2
    I've discussed the Talons before in this thread: http://forums.whitewolfarchive.com/default5aaf-4.html

    There are no stats, official or otherwise, detailing the exact nature of the Talons in their "pure"/unimprisoned forms. It's unknown if there were four or five Talons (even the Garou have forgotten exactly how many Talons there were. But three of the Talons' names are remembered:

    Koshchei the Deathless (imprisoned in an artifact called the Soul Egg) whose story is detailed in Rage Across Russia and is considered the "first finger" of the Talons, also known as "He-who-points";

    Narlthus, the "thumb" Talon, imprisoned inside an ovoid-shaped meteorite in the far north by the Wendigo in ancient times. The meteorite was recovered by the Black Spiral Dancers in Rite of Passage but the BSDs haven't yet managed to release the Narlthus;

    Thrassus Thrice-Damned, referred to as the "smallest finger" Talon, is detailed in Book of the Weaver and is perhaps the strangest of the three canon Talons: it is located inside a secure government facility in an unknown location and is referred to as "the Anti-Christ Serum" by a security guard with a morbid sense of humor. it takes the form of a blue-green ichor encased in a several foot long cylindrical glass capsule...although if that substance is glass, it is a form of glass that can't be marred or scratched by any known man-made instrument. It is unknown how Thrassus Thrice-Damned wound up in that secure facility and it's hinted that no one there at that facility knows of its true nature or even what it is.

    This is of dubious canonicity since it's from the Time of Judgment novel The Last Battle by Bill Bridges, but another Talon of the Wyrm known as the Heartsplitter is encountered during the Apocalypse. It escaped from its prison (the nature of which isn't revealed) and slew its Uktena Banetenders. It manifested as a green mist in the Umbra, but dwelled in the hearts of Garou within several miles of its location, forcing them to frenzy constantly. Evan Heals-the-Past found that he couldn't fight it directly, but that the only way to defeat it was to still his own Rage and sacrifice himself. (He got better.)

    No word at all on whether the Talons are "stronger than the Antediluvians," but at that level of godlike power I wouldn't think there's much difference between the two.



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    • #3
      I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that antediluvians are probably not as impressive to monsters that aren't simply just weaksauce versions of them as vampires are. V:tM has a theme where elder power trumps that of the younger generations by fiat; there is no such protection to be had against other monsters.

      Originally posted by Su-tehp View Post
      I

      Thrassus Thrice-Damned, referred to as the "smallest finger" Talon, is detailed in Book of the Weaver and is perhaps the strangest of the three canon Talons: it is located inside a secure government facility in an unknown location and is referred to as "the Anti-Christ Serum" by a security guard with a morbid sense of humor. it takes the form of a blue-green ichor encased in a several foot long cylindrical glass capsule...although if that substance is glass, it is a form of glass that can't be marred or scratched by any known man-made instrument. It is unknown how Thrassus Thrice-Damned wound up in that secure facility and it's hinted that no one there at that facility knows of its true nature or even what it is.

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      • #4
        i could swear that absimilliard fought sth of the wyrm shortly after baba yaga's embrace.

        but i doubt it was a talon of the wyrm. from what i know of werewolf these guys are celestines right?

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        • #5
          Mark... not everything falls into neat categories like that. It kills they mystery and the actual level of threat things like the Talons are. You cannot fight them on an even footing, so fighting them because a tale of its own...

          I'm surprised noone else connected the Prince of Darkness with the "Serum" in Book of the Weaver. It felt like such a obvious shoutout, but then again I'm a big Carpenter fan, and avid horror aficionado.


          What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
            Mark... not everything falls into neat categories like that. It kills they mystery and the actual level of threat things like the Talons are. You cannot fight them on an even footing, so fighting them because a tale of its own...

            I'm surprised noone else connected the Prince of Darkness with the "Serum" in Book of the Weaver. It felt like such a obvious shoutout, but then again I'm a big Carpenter fan, and avid horror aficionado.
            I actually knew that and remember pointing that out to people when BotWv came out. For a long time I thought I was the only one who ever saw that movie. Alice Cooper was in it too.

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            • #7
              I never followed Werewolf canon or metaplot closely. I preferred my own extrapolations on concepts, and took what I liked, changed what I needed, and ignored the rest. Given my semi-Lovecraftian interpretation of the setting, I always took it that "Talons of the Wyrm" was a way to include things like the Great Old Ones within the Garou mythology.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
                Mark... not everything falls into neat categories like that. It kills they mystery and the actual level of threat things like the Talons are. You cannot fight them on an even footing, so fighting them because a tale of its own...

                I'm surprised noone else connected the Prince of Darkness with the "Serum" in Book of the Weaver. It felt like such a obvious shoutout, but then again I'm a big Carpenter fan, and avid horror aficionado.
                I made the connection as well after I read Book of the Weaver, which is to say I read the TVTropes page for Prince of Darkness, then sometime later looked up Thrassus Thrice-Damned in Book of the Weaver and then made the connection. It's an obvious shout out.

                And I friggin' hate horror movies. They make me sick to my stomach (which is probably the point of them, but still...blech).

                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                I never followed Werewolf canon or metaplot closely. I preferred my own extrapolations on concepts, and took what I liked, changed what I needed, and ignored the rest. Given my semi-Lovecraftian interpretation of the setting, I always took it that "Talons of the Wyrm" was a way to include things like the Great Old Ones within the Garou mythology.
                Yeah, the Wyrm's minions in most W:tA books doesn't seem all that Lovecraftian, more like splatterpunk horror. But when you read about the Wyrm itself in Book of the Wyrm 2nd Ed being a "supernal" force of nature and that it pervades the whole Tellurian and makes up 1/3 of reality and that it's insane....
                Last edited by Su-tehp; 03-30-2015, 03:09 AM.



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                • #9
                  According to Rage Across Russia when Baba Yaga was trying to fight off the Nosferatu antediluvian she called up Koschei the Deathless as her finishing move, and the battle between the two was inconclusive. However, that was a fight with a 3,000-year-old antediluvian, whereas most of them are now around 10,000 years old with all the increased power that implies. Just based on how much stuff got stirred up during the Week of Nightmares I'd say the original members of the 3rd generation probably operate on on a wider scale than things like the Maeljin Incarnae.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Su-tehp View Post
                    Yeah, the Wyrm's minions in most W:tA books doesn't seem all that Lovecraftian, more like splatterpunk horror.
                    I agree. It's not how the game developed, likely because the developers wanted a more upbeat high fantasy feel. However, the first time I read the core book and saw the Nexus Crawler, I immediately thought of Lovecraft. I also think there was a reference to something terrible in Antartica, and I immediately thought of the Mountains of Madness.

                    Splatterpunk never really scared me. It could shock me, but it never disturbed or horrified me. But I always thought a more Lovecraftian take, or at least depiction, would have added a lot to the game.

                    Originally posted by Su-tehp View Post
                    But when you read about the Wyrm itself in Book of the Wyrm 2nd Ed being a "supernal" force of nature and that it pervades the whole Tellurian and makes up 1/3 of reality and that it's insane....
                    Yes, there are a few cases where more Lovecraftian elements pop out, and the Book of the Wyrm 2nd Edition has a few of them.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                      According to Rage Across Russia when Baba Yaga was trying to fight off the Nosferatu antediluvian she called up Koschei the Deathless as her finishing move, and the battle between the two was inconclusive. However, that was a fight with a 3,000-year-old antediluvian, whereas most of them are now around 10,000 years old with all the increased power that implies. Just based on how much stuff got stirred up during the Week of Nightmares I'd say the original members of the 3rd generation probably operate on on a wider scale than things like the Maeljin Incarnae.


                      And yet Saulot clearly considered "Become a Yama King" an upgrade to Antedeluvian status and Yama Kings do seem to be on par with Maeljin Incarnae. Of course there may just be limits of "fantasy fist fight level" that Antes reach while still not being comparable to more transcendant aspects.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lian View Post



                        And yet Saulot clearly considered "Become a Yama King" an upgrade to Antedeluvian status and Yama Kings do seem to be on par with Maeljin Incarnae. Of course there may just be limits of "fantasy fist fight level" that Antes reach while still not being comparable to more transcendant aspects.
                        Antediluvians - their new name is Midboss.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mark View Post
                          i could swear that absimilliard fought sth of the wyrm shortly after baba yaga's embrace.

                          but i doubt it was a talon of the wyrm. from what i know of werewolf these guys are celestines right?
                          What's a "sth?" This word needs vowels.

                          Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                          According to Rage Across Russia when Baba Yaga was trying to fight off the Nosferatu antediluvian she called up Koschei the Deathless as her finishing move, and the battle between the two was inconclusive. However, that was a fight with a 3,000-year-old antediluvian, whereas most of them are now around 10,000 years old with all the increased power that implies. Just based on how much stuff got stirred up during the Week of Nightmares I'd say the original members of the 3rd generation probably operate on on a wider scale than things like the Maeljin Incarnae.
                          And don't forget that during that battle with Absimilliard, even before Baba Yaga summoned Koschei, she also summoned the Zmei to fight Absimilliard. Absimilliard simply created illusions of himself as decoys and scattered the Zmei off to the four corners of Russia. It was only then that Baba Yaga summoned Koschei from his prison (was the Soul Egg used multiple times to imprisoned Koschei? If Russian folklore has multiple appearances of Koschei, that would seem to indicate so...) to fight Absimilliard. Only then, did Baba Yaga flee.



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                          • #14
                            Razzum, fuzzum. I'm still not too keen on Baba Yaga being a Vampire. As a creature of her stature and Myth, she screams Spirit/Fae... Or heck, an utterly insane Mage of the Old Faith.


                            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
                              Razzum, fuzzum. I'm still not too keen on Baba Yaga being a Vampire. As a creature of her stature and Myth, she screams Spirit/Fae... Or heck, an utterly insane Mage of the Old Faith.
                              I have a totem for a Wyrm Tribe I created called Old Witch in the Woods, she is the real Baba Yaga and the Vampire just stole her name.

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