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The contradiction of "Pure Breed Metis"

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  • Lin Liren
    started a topic The contradiction of "Pure Breed Metis"

    The contradiction of "Pure Breed Metis"

    I always wondered about the contradiction of Metis, even Silver Fangs Metis, possessing the "Pure Breed" Background.

    How can a physically/spiritually deformed and sterile mutant possess any Pure Pedigree at all in the first place?
    Last edited by Lin Liren; 04-10-2015, 07:23 AM.

  • Koronus
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    "Ok, it's got horns, but it's definitely a Silver Fang with horns."
    Exactly this whas said in Changeing Ways too. While they are created from a litanei breach they are still Silver Fangs so as long they can prove their worth they are noble leaders.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post

    How can a physically/spiritually deformed and sterile mutant possess any Pure Pedigree at all in the first place?
    I don't know exactly how widespread it was, but I do believe particularly xenophobic aristocrats in the old days would partake in incest as a means of keeping the bloodline as free from contamination as possible. Heck, even clan Giovanni adhered to this stereotype, before V5 smashed up their infrastructure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lyrics Of War
    replied
    I always thought pure breed was the physical element of it that came with spiritual ramifications. Like clearly you’re the exemplar of how this tribe should look and people expect certain behaviors and patterns because of it. It’s more a trap than it is a benefit I think. Double edge of royalty.

    While I understand that it’s all supposed to be mysticism I prefer a bit more scientific grounding in the more physical things like pure breed. Particularly since it hammers home this idea that they aren’t human. Like racial concepts =\= purity of breed since the homid form isn’t necessarily indicative of the tribal membership.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


    I think that was always a thing though, or it has been since revised at least, because I recall talk of leaving your tribe cancels out all your pure breed. I don't think it's so much it comes from your totem but kind of the Gestalt spirit of the Tribe.

    One of the more confusing things that need clarification though is how Silverfangs spread. Because if you breed with someone of another tribe it cancels out your purebreed, even though one chapter fiction involving Shadowlords and Silverfangs seemed to ignore this with a shadowlord poaching a pure bred kinfolk. But if you breed with just say the local group of humans in the area to make a new branch of kinfolk, does the first generation have enough purebreed to be viable breeding stock? Like do you need particularly pure Silver Fangs to start a new family or do you just do it in multiple generations, and if someone has a first change with not enough Pure Breed getting shunted off into another tribe?
    Thing is, it was (as most WtA things are) houseruled and headcanoned to hell and back. A lot of descriptions of pure breed were vague and people were heavily mixed on if it stuck on your or not switching tribes. Even seen a Silver Fang to Gnawer have their PB spiritually erased to fit the Gnawer rules. Some even coasted by the ability to have PB despite tribe switching. Hence why when W20 was being written and they had their blog about it, I was VERY aggressively trying to get it clarified.

    With Kinfolk, I think they cannot actually switch tribe. It does, however, go into the vague rules of the whole thing, some thought it didn't go away while some thought.

    How do Fangs spread? I think by marriage. Marry kinfolk to the royal families of area A and just keep doing it until you have a stable garou population there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

    Not only that, but the only totem who doesn't accept all breeds is Griffin. One that's tribe is trying to make a point about too much human influence. Even then, Griffin is FINE with metis.

    Let us also remember, that the Pure Breed in W20 comes from the totems. I say this, because this was one thing that I requested the writers to clarify due to years of issues. You do not get Pure Breed unless the totem feels you should. If you leave your birth tribe, goodbye pure breed.

    Metis hate is very much cultural among the garou. Stag and Falcon don't care what breed you are, but their tribes start a HUGE issue over it.

    I think that was always a thing though, or it has been since revised at least, because I recall talk of leaving your tribe cancels out all your pure breed. I don't think its so much it comes from your totem but kind of the Gestalt spirit of the Tribe.

    One of the more confusing things that need clarification though is how Silverfangs spread. Because if you breed with someone of another tribe it cancels out your purebreed, even though one chapter fiction involving Shadowlords and Silverfangs seemed to ignore this with a shadowlord poaching a pure bred kinfolk. But if you breed with just say the local group of humans in the area to make a new branch of kinfolk, does the first generation have enough purebreed to be viable breeding stock? Like do you need particularly pure Silver Fangs to start a new family or do you just do it in multiple generations, and if someone has a first change with not enough Pure Breed getting shunted off into another tribe?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Garou are a bunch of hypocrites.

    This isn't me putting them down but highlighting a major theme of their presentation.
    Not only that, but the only totem who doesn't accept all breeds is Griffin. One that's tribe is trying to make a point about too much human influence. Even then, Griffin is FINE with metis.

    Let us also remember, that the Pure Breed in W20 comes from the totems. I say this, because this was one thing that I requested the writers to clarify due to years of issues. You do not get Pure Breed unless the totem feels you should. If you leave your birth tribe, goodbye pure breed.

    Metis hate is very much cultural among the garou. Stag and Falcon don't care what breed you are, but their tribes start a HUGE issue over it.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post
    I always wondered about the contradiction of Metis, even Silver Fangs Metis, possessing the "Pure Breed" Background.

    How can a physically/spiritually deformed and sterile mutant possess any Pure Pedigree at all in the first place?
    Garou are a bunch of hypocrites.

    This isn't me putting them down but highlighting a major theme of their presentation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    To the Silver Fang looks in homid discussion, I'd say it highly depends on the house and who was the latest human or homid relative. So Crescent Moon would be Russian to Siberian.

    As for the metis with PB, the totem doesn't care about breed of the garou. Even Falcon or Stag don't. So metis can have PB 5 as easily as a homid or a lupus.

    My current SF metis is Crescent Moon, so they look a bit mixed with Siberian and Caucasian traits.


    Leave a comment:


  • Story Letter
    replied
    Guys, lately I play a Pure Breed 5 Metis Fenrir, with monstrous deformity, who so far lived in monastic isolation for killing a tribemate in frenzy, the lack of discipline made his elders cast him away from caern borders but called him back when they heard he slayed a Crockerwyrm with the help of a vagabond Fianna. When he turned back his pure breeding kicked in dominating septmates socialy aiding his cause without being asked favours in return. ''Hey woman bind my clothes and clean them'' style.

    Leave a comment:


  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    Well you can also have blonde Australian Aborigines as well, along with some people in the Solomon Islands who are rather dark skinned but blond haired blue eyed too, so I'm not saying it could happen especially with Black Fox's comment about the connection to Luna...I just think it'd probably be a good thing for OP to show that (granted that may rely on more color images in books....)

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Tenrec View Post
    platinum blonde hair
    The main reason platinum blond hair - and the white fur of the arctic wolf - is used is because it connotes the idea of "silver" in the name of Silver Fang and that color's connection to Luna.

    Obviously platinum blonde hair is restricted to white people, but it's possible for non-Caucasians to show some other connection to silver or Luna. It might be premature white hair, or some form of vitilgio where skin loses its pigmentation. It may not even have anything to do with color, but have other things that remind one of the moon - perhaps a crescent birthmark.

    Leave a comment:


  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    It's a good question, but we must remember that Pure Breed is not genetic, but spiritual. It's a connection to the greatness of blood of your ancestors, and Metis still have that "divine blood".

    Not all metis are horribly deformed either. The classic example would be Tsarveich Alexi who had hemophilia because of inbreeding. That or similar could be an example of Metis among the Silver Fang.

    As for deformities, we have the example of the last Hapsburg king of Spain, Charles II. He retained distinct appearance of the Hapsburg line even while being physically and mentally disabled as well as infertile. In that sense he retained "Pure Breed" while showing the problems a Metis would.

    That such things are possible with "purity of blood", should tell the Garou that there are obvious limits to the concept.


    All agreed here, and also remember that a metis trait can also not necessarily physical "deformity". The metis could be epileptic, some derangement (which would be perfectly inline with Silver Fang stereotypes), or something more mystical like taking extra damage from silver.

    Leave a comment:


  • CeltSPZ
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    That's more of legacy of Silver Fangs being arctic wolves, and many people living in the far north in Europe are very white skinned, blue eyed, and blonde hair. Especially with the idea that Silver Fangs are bred from noble families, there is a very European bias.

    They should also show people descended from non-European peoples in the arctic or Siberia who would form the basis of the families of the royal houses in Asia (possibly Wise Heart and definitely Blood Red Crest). With them, you would have examples of Pure Breed Silver Fangs who don't look white.

    Wise Heart may be more problematic because it seems to be more Mediterranean base which sounds like they are at least partially descended from European stock.

    However, ultimately, the "appearance" of Silver Fangs is not tightly related to Pure Breed in the sense that Pure Breed must imply pale skin, blue eyes, platinum blond, etc. It's just that those are traits possessed by the European PB5, so that is what is passed on by PB obsessed families. Among Wise Heart and Blood Red Crest, the families that preserved PB5 would appear differently given the length of time they were in other lands, so we'd see other traits that "define" PB5 in those lands as being passed on. It's just that since no resources really exist for those lands, we've never been given that.
    To an extent I agree with this lack of information being and issue. For me, when I picture Silver Fang, I do picture the Rage Cards where only a few weren't blonde, but I don't believe I ever saw a non-caucasian. They did however cover non-European peoples in the arctic, and we got the Siberakh.....which are outcasts as far as Falcon is concerned, or am I wrong here?

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post
    I always wondered about the contradiction of Metis, even Silver Fangs Metis, possessing the "Pure Breed" Background.

    How can a physically/spiritually deformed and sterile mutant possess any Pure Pedigree at all in the first place?
    It's a good question, but we must remember that Pure Breed is not genetic, but spiritual. It's a connection to the greatness of blood of your ancestors, and Metis still have that "divine blood".

    Not all metis are horribly deformed either. The classic example would be Tsarveich Alexi who had hemophilia because of inbreeding. That or similar could be an example of Metis among the Silver Fang.

    As for deformities, we have the example of the last Hapsburg king of Spain, Charles II. He retained distinct appearance of the Hapsburg line even while being physically and mentally disabled as well as infertile. In that sense he retained "Pure Breed" while showing the problems a Metis would.

    That such things are possible with "purity of blood", should tell the Garou that there are obvious limits to the concept.

    Leave a comment:

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