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The Torretto Family from "Fast and Furious 5-7" = How to play a Proper Garou Pack.

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  • #16
    Well, with tonight's release of the Fate of the Furious, it would be interesting to see how they handle Dominic dancing the Black-Spiral to become the Beta to an ex-Glass-Walker Black Spiral Dancer Theurge Alpha, with Hobbs becoming the New Alpha of the Toretto pack and having Deckard Shaw, an ex-Black Spiral Dancer himself, taking Brian O'Connor's place as pack Ragabash.

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    • #17
      Willl write more during Lunch Break; but besides being yet another totally kick-ass action movie with a big silly heart, Furious 8 shows us a disturbing sure fire way to make the noblest of Garou Heroes to willingly dance the Black Spiral for you:

      By holding their children hostage, with the threat of murdering them if you do not start dancing.
      Last edited by Lin Liren; 04-12-2017, 08:03 PM.

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      • #18
        With the changes of allegiances that are abound in Fate of the Fruious, a thought came to me.

        It is an unspoken fact that a regrettable majority of current Black Spiral Dancers are former Gaians Warriors who are made to dance the Black Spiral, whether willingly or outright forced to do so.

        However, just as it is possible for Vampires on Monstrous Paths to genuinely want to be good again and CHOOSE regain their Humanity, is it at all possible for a Black Spiral, former Gaian or otherwise, to choose to "Dance OUT of the Black Spiral and back into the light", thereby redeeming themselves?

        Former Gains forced down the road of villainy with their families held as hostage are the most obvious candidates, but what of Spirals raised in abusive families who "never wanted to be monsters" and actually WANT to be Good People?

        For that matter, would a "redeemed" Black Spiral Dancer be able to adopt a Gaian Tribe? Especially if they are BORN into a life of villainy IN the Hivess or raised by abusive Spiral Kinfolk, and never even HAD a Gaian Tribe to call kin to begin with?
        Last edited by Lin Liren; 04-17-2017, 12:29 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post
          With the changes of allegiances that are abound in Fate of the Fruious, a thought came to me.

          It is an unspoken fact that a regrettable majority of current Black Spiral Dancers are former Gaians Warriors who are made to dance the Black Spiral, whether willingly or outright forced to do so.

          However, just as it is possible for Vampires on Monstrous Paths to genuinely want to be good again and CHOOSE regain their Humanity, is it at all possible for a Black Spiral, former Gaian or otherwise, to choose to "Dance OUT of the Black Spiral and back into the light", thereby redeeming themselves?

          Former Gains forced down the road of villainy with their families held as hostage are the most obvious candidates, but what of Spirals raised in abusive families who "never wanted to be monsters" and actually WANT to be Good People?

          For that matter, would a "redeemed" Black Spiral Dancer be able to adopt a Gaian Tribe? Especially if they are BORN into a life of villainy IN the Hivess or raised by abusive Spiral Kinfolk, and never even HAD a Gaian Tribe to call kin to begin with?

          It depends on your game table.

          I've asked that question here before and the answer is no. But I think a good redemption story could work for a BSD who understands crimes and horrors they have committed. Rite of the Silver Forge is an option.

          Of course I've played a lot of Exalted. A character who is the one Garou ever to come back to Gaia after dancing the Spiral is a good PC in game story in my opinion.


          Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

          The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
            It depends on your game table.

            I've asked that question here before and the answer is no. But I think a good redemption story could work for a BSD who understands crimes and horrors they have committed. Rite of the Silver Forge is an option.

            Of course I've played a lot of Exalted. A character who is the one Garou ever to come back to Gaia after dancing the Spiral is a good PC in game story in my opinion.
            At my table, it's a very firm, "No." If another player or storyteller comes up with some incredible, ridiculously awesome and impossibly difficult way to allow that to happen, I'd be at least curious to hear their thoughts on it, though. However, to me, one of the key points of the BSDs is that they are irreparably broken. Even if the Wyrm taint could be removed, they'd still be broken, and would likely regain that taint through their future actions and dealing. The way I see it, if you open the door to the notion that they can "see the error of their ways" and repent, it guts a lot of the pure horror of the BSDs in that they are a force that can't be reasoned with, can't be convinced through rationalizing, can't be saved, etc. They see the Garou as just as wrong as the Garou see them, and there is a particularly keen kind of menace in that approach that I wouldn't want to remove. Additionally, it opens the door to the whole, "Oh, some of them are just misunderstood/can be redeemed/etc D: " thing ("He's just a poor, misunderstood Drow. "). That also kind of nerfs their menace, in my mind.

            Maybe a BSD has enough of a lucid moment to decide they no longer want to be a part of what they once hated, feared, and fought so strongly against. Perhaps in that moment, they off themselves to stop whatever future atrocities they'd cause. I'd be a little more on board with that, but I'd still say it should be pretty rare. Instead, I'd likely play it out more like a Pinhead-esque moment of, "Oh. That once-human part of me. How quaint." And then getting right back on with the horror (note: I'm not saying that Garou/BSD are human, just giving a comparison). Or it'd all be a ruse so they could later back-stab some poor, trusting Garou.

            Originally posted by lin-liren
            Former Gains forced down the road of villainy with their families held as hostage are the most obvious candidates, but what of Spirals raised in abusive families who "never wanted to be monsters" and actually WANT to be Good People?

            For that matter, would a "redeemed" Black Spiral Dancer be able to adopt a Gaian Tribe? Especially if they are BORN into a life of villainy IN the Hivess or raised by abusive Spiral Kinfolk, and never even HAD a Gaian Tribe to call kin to begin with?
            I see these kinds of examples as a beautiful part of the epic tragedy that is WtA and the BSDs. So many of the Dancers didn't choose their fate, and yet they are still ruined and cursed anyway. What better way to drive home how futile all the fighting is than to show a BSD agreeing with a member of the Garou nation with how twisted he is, how he may even sometimes briefly wish to have had a different life, only to jump right back into trying to kill that Garou? How deliciously damning and dreary!

            So far, the only way I can think of that I'd toy with the idea of a BSD coming back from the twisted, broken thing they've become is if the Wyrm itself, or some force of nearly equal power, willingly let go of (or broke) the hold on said BSD.

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            • #21
              There is also a tragedy in a Redeemed BSD being killed by the Garou Nation. "It's a trick. No one comes back from the Spiral." There is a way to save the BSD and maybe even a way to cleanse the Wyrm of Corruption.... but the Garou Nation is too blind to see it.

              As I said, it depends on the table and what story you want to tell.


              Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

              The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Lin Liren View Post
                With the changes of allegiances that are abound in Fate of the Fruious, a thought came to me.

                It is an unspoken fact that a regrettable majority of current Black Spiral Dancers are former Gaians Warriors who are made to dance the Black Spiral, whether willingly or outright forced to do so.

                However, just as it is possible for Vampires on Monstrous Paths to genuinely want to be good again and CHOOSE regain their Humanity, is it at all possible for a Black Spiral, former Gaian or otherwise, to choose to "Dance OUT of the Black Spiral and back into the light", thereby redeeming themselves?

                Former Gains forced down the road of villainy with their families held as hostage are the most obvious candidates, but what of Spirals raised in abusive families who "never wanted to be monsters" and actually WANT to be Good People?

                For that matter, would a "redeemed" Black Spiral Dancer be able to adopt a Gaian Tribe? Especially if they are BORN into a life of villainy IN the Hivess or raised by abusive Spiral Kinfolk, and never even HAD a Gaian Tribe to call kin to begin with?
                Note that you cannot literally force someone to Dance the Spiral. At some point, they have to be a willing participant, even if they're only willing in attempting to avoid death. I imagine most converts start out that way. Trying to avoid death, thinking they'll be able to escape...and then finding that by the time they have a chance to escape, they're too ashamed of what they've done to be able to look back to their old life.

                I've seen the occasional BSD kin join a Gaian Tribe, but Dark Fate is pretty much a requirement for such a character.

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