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Persuasion assisted Social actions, possible results?

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  • Persuasion assisted Social actions, possible results?

    Persuasion has always seemed Like a overly vague gift to me would like ideas on what effects it can create.... its one of the most basic and widely found gifts, so needs some help extrapolating.



  • #2
    I think it is fairly simple. First, it reduces the difficulty for social based die rolls by one.

    Second, it allows for some strong impacts that normally aren't allowed for social rolls. I think this is what you mean by overly vague and needing guidance. Description in W20 gives examples like changing long held political beliefs or causing addict to consider changing their lives. This seems quite powerful, but I think it's more limited than what it appears on the surface. 1) The ST has to adjudicate what's possible per encounter. What might be allowed for one person in one situation might not be allowed for another. The ST has to make a judgment call based on the character. This is something whose impact is reserved for mostly unimportant NPCs, not so that the main villain of the chronicle has a change of heart. 2) There is no mind control involved or anything like that. Effects are limited to the scene. Afterwards the people affected just remember a very powerful and moving speech. Once back to their regular routine, that impact might be lessened or even entirely negated. Only if subsequent events reinforce or continually support that kind of change, will it continue to hold and eventually be internalized.

    Let's use the addict as an example. If the addiction is minor or just beginning behavior, a successful social roll with Persuasion probably gets them to quit. Someone who is a hard core drug user and heavily addicted, may not be affected at all, or else quickly slips back into drug use (and the difficulty here is likely very high anyway even with Persuasion lowering it). Someone who is heavily addicted, but recently had some major trauma as a result of their drug use, might be sincere to turn their life around - but will likely succumb back to addiction if their routines are the same. Only if the PC continually follows up with the character and helps them change their life, to remove elements that would tempt them back to drug use, would the NPC addict's life turn around.

    So make a decision about the NPC in question, use common sense, and assign appropriate difficulty numbers, and the number of successes needed for anything more than a temporary change. and always remember in the end, all the Garou has done was give one powerful speech, discussion, or talk. After the scene ends, it just becomes a memory.

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    • #3
      ok just for a basic social roll... say I want to convert a garou (Presumably a cub) or a kin with deep abrahamatic roots to the garou nations world view.

      or my char in wyld west a federal marshall is telling people "Nothing to see, nothing to see here, this is federal business move along" Probaly 7 or so, his credentials are real even if he does (Rarely) abuse them on behalf of the garou nation.


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      • #4
        Considering there is much support for Garou spirituality, I think opening up the cub/kin's mind is definitely within scope. I don't think it is impossible to reconcile a belief in one god to Gaia and the spirit realm so I would hold off on saying the cub/kin abandoned belief in God. However, the person would be open to learning more about the Gaian perspective and would begin his process of learning about it. Whatever happens after that point is simply part of that character's personal development.

        Federal Marshal's use is also fine for most people. If someone who actually knows the law knows it is not federal business though, he would react as normal - he would just know the marshal is either a very convincing liar, or ignorant of the real law. Someone who didn't know the law, but who wanted to do something the marshal prevented, would likely follow up somehow like contact his own lawyer to figure out a way around it.

        At the end of the day, Persuasion just allows a really convincing speech/discussion/negotiation by the Garou. It is not any kind of compulsion or mind alteration of the other person, certainly not after the conversation ends.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
          ok just for a basic social roll... say I want to convert a garou (Presumably a cub) or a kin with deep abrahamatic roots to the garou nations world view.

          or my char in wyld west a federal marshall is telling people "Nothing to see, nothing to see here, this is federal business move along" Probaly 7 or so, his credentials are real even if he does (Rarely) abuse them on behalf of the garou nation.
          Erm. The first use seems quite contrary to the spirit of the gift. Persuasion will get people to do things short term and believe you when you try to sell him a tale. It won't change their deep seated beliefs that are core to their character. If you want to change those you have to roleplay it, or find a brainwashing power instead.

          The second use is pretty much what Persuasion is for. You'd be able to pull of the king of all Bavarian Fire Drills with it, with or without credentials.


          What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
            Erm. The first use seems quite contrary to the spirit of the gift. Persuasion will get people to do things short term and believe you when you try to sell him a tale. It won't change their deep seated beliefs that are core to their character. If you want to change those you have to roleplay it, or find a brainwashing power instead.
            I agree.
            Although, if it is role-played and stretched over several scenes and game sessions, each time a social roll as part of an extended action (if the target is NPC), then the gift could each time lower the difficulty.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              I agree.
              Although, if it is role-played and stretched over several scenes and game sessions, each time a social roll as part of an extended action (if the target is NPC), then the gift could each time lower the difficulty.
              Sure! But that's a prolonged effort. It will take weeks or even months before it properly takes hold.


              What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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              • #8
                oh curious if I could revive this thread? What would dice pool and difficult be for the thing with the "This is federal business" or either of these two things.

                begging.

                or coopting some random driver into becoming your taxi.



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                • #9
                  The corebook already gives guidelines as to what each Difficulty number means. 6 is Average - and with that you know there is a 50/50 chance of failure - with 7 being Challenging, 8 being Difficult and 9 and 10 being extremely difficult.

                  A Federal Marshall saying something is Federal business and waving people away is probably a fairly easy difficulty number for ordinary civilians just passing by. But to other law enforcement officials or authority figures, lawyers, educated citizens, or people who have a vested interest in what is happening, that would increase or even be impossible.

                  An ordinary person trying to get some random driver to become your taxi is probably a 9 or 10, or even flat out fails - no roll required. People don't offer to become taxi services to random strangers. Someone might be willing to have someone get into their car and drop them off on the way they are already going, but only with the usual caveats - do they consider the person safe to allow access to their vehicle, does it seem like the person absolutely needs them to do this (say a person stranded with their car engine dead or similar emergency), and how convenient is it?

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                  • #10
                    I was able to get a stranger to take me home once because my shoe just fell apart, but he wasnt a random driver he saw my shoes heel fall off.

                    If I accept a ride I always check the doorhandles first.


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                    • #11
                      oh, what Roll would a Apis make when trying to set a shifter and kin up?


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                      • #12
                        oh just thought to ask? what would a Red Talon from Whelps compromise probaly do to get the gifts apeskin tool's or persuasion?

                        try summoning the spirits himself, or try to find a sympathetic CoG?


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          Considering there is much support for Garou spirituality, I think opening up the cub/kin's mind is definitely within scope. I don't think it is impossible to reconcile a belief in one god to Gaia and the spirit realm so I would hold off on saying the cub/kin abandoned belief in God. However, the person would be open to learning more about the Gaian perspective and would begin his process of learning about it. Whatever happens after that point is simply part of that character's personal development.

                          Federal Marshal's use is also fine for most people. If someone who actually knows the law knows it is not federal business though, he would react as normal - he would just know the marshal is either a very convincing liar, or ignorant of the real law. Someone who didn't know the law, but who wanted to do something the marshal prevented, would likely follow up somehow like contact his own lawyer to figure out a way around it.

                          At the end of the day, Persuasion just allows a really convincing speech/discussion/negotiation by the Garou. It is not any kind of compulsion or mind alteration of the other person, certainly not after the conversation ends.
                          In W20, the player rolls Charisma + Subterfuge, which to me makes it more than just really good oratory, which I'd want to play as a Charisma + Expression roll, or maybe Charisma + Performance. I think of it as an attempt to actually change the mind of the target in a way that would look like hypnosis to a third person, rather than just making a good argument for something already agreeable to them. It's not going to work like vampiric Dominate, where you can magically force a hostile target to do your will instead of his own, nor like Intimidation, where you frighten the target into obedience, nor like manipulation, which I think of as an attempt to lie to or trick someone. These are all social interactions, but I think the Persuasion gift is appropriate when your target is not hostile, but might be expected to resist your request or instructions if you didn't use the gift.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wilson View Post
                            Persuasion gift is appropriate when your target is not hostile, but might be expected to resist your request or instructions if you didn't use the gift.
                            The Persuasion gift can be used on hostile targets and even make them change mind and go away, this gift makes even nigh-impossible social outcomes to happen, difficult, but it has that potential.

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                            • #15
                              Which makes it hard to see how Persuasion and The curse even out something ive mentioned before I know.


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