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How to issue renown during the game

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  • How to issue renown during the game

    Hello!
    I'm an experienced GM of Vampire (15+years) but this is the 1st time I'm running a Chronicle of Werewolf. I use 20th rules.

    My question is what system do you use to give Honor/Glory/Wisdom? I'm thinking on either doing it during the game as the action is done or doing it at the end of each game session, together with the XP.

    Have you learn by hart the 3 pages table of renown or you just give renown "as you feel appropriate"? I'm more prone to the latest.

    Any other advices for a rooky Werewolf GM?

  • #2
    I give it out at the end of the session with the xp, I just go down the chart and tell the players accordingly.

    However I leave it up to the gallard to remember the how and why's the PC earned what they did.


    Are you on the square?
    Are you on the level?

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    • #3
      I will have a whole session be a Moot, a gathering of all the Garou in the Area. which I use to highlight the different npcs andbtheir roles in Garou society. I'll have npcs be awarded and stripped of Renown, and even punished before all assenbled so the characters and players renember they are not alone and what comes of success and failings in the eyes of the nation. (Player feedback is really positive on this, especially on seeing others fail and be punished. Helps them see its not only them who get it wrong at times.)

      Before this session I tally everything I can remember or have kept notes for from the game so far. At times i'll get the players to remember it by saying at the time "that's renown worthy" and they'll either tell a story of their pack or each others deeds. But I get the galliard to pay attention to other npcs to tell their stories so it doesnt seem like self serving or personal hyperbole.

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      • #4
        If I'm running things without a lot of house rules (been playing WtA since '97... I have a good sized stack of them), I do Renown at the end of the session. There's some more advanced techniques you can use with it (some are even in the books), but those are best saved for once you get a hang of the rest of the game.

        As for a 3 pages of rewards/penalties. Don't feel bound by that. They're examples to help make assigning Renown easier. Adjust them up and down as seems appropriate (but make sure to say why so your players don't feel like you're being arbitrary). Also remember that generally speaking anything the pack does as a group, means everyone gets the same Renown for it. Save individual Renown stuff for things that are truly individual events/efforts. If the pack kills a bunch of fomori, they all get the same Glory (and any secondary bonuses like executing a plan well such that no friendlies are harmed, etc), but if one PC frenzies, and another gets their first wound for the Rite of Wounding, those should be individually assessed.

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        • #5
          I tend to give them out at the end of the session but I'm toying with the idea of going it on the fly based on achieving objectives and role play. However I think that renown penalties would be reserved for moots or punishment by pack totem or spirits etc rather than interrupting the flow of the game to give a penalty. However I feel that at the end of a scene giving a small chunk of renown is an way of uplifting the spirits of the group and reneforcing good play.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

            As for a 3 pages of rewards/penalties. Don't feel bound by that. They're examples to help make assigning Renown easier. Adjust them up and down as seems appropriate (but make sure to say why so your players don't feel like you're being arbitrary).
            THis. The renown chart is not the end all be all for rewards.


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            • #7
              I've found it best to note special deeds and noteable events during the game and then tally all the bonuses and maluses at the end of the session. Keep in mind that most actions and deeds will have an impact on renown, and that the tables in the book are mostly a guideline to show you what kind of stuff happens. Just read about their culture and values, and you'll get a good grasp with the help of the tables. After a while you'll be able to do it on your own.

              The key thing to remember is that once you have 10 temporary you need to find other Garou to retell your deeds and to recognize your renown and give you a permanent dot. I've found it more practical to actually just give the dots out, and require them to still tell their tales whenever they meet others. It's the spirits that recognize renown, and characters who travel a lot or end up on umbral quests can really end up fucked on dots of Renown if they are stuck outside Garou society.

              Also, as someone who runs really long games, I need to warn you that the system as presented in the game is tailored to shorter games. If you run a very long game (my run in 30-60 sessions usually), you may need to increase the amount of renown for rank 3,4,5, as otherwise you might actually have characters going from 1-5 within a year of game time :P


              What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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              • #8
                I don't have a set number of sessions for my chronicle. I expect it to be long, it will eventually end with the apocalypse, but no way soon.
                We play 1 session a month.

                Should I worry about a too quick rising of my PCs?

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                • #9
                  Play up till Rank Two and you'll have a grasp of how fast you're going. Effectivley it comes down that if your stories are sequential and happen on a small time scale (i.e. time between stories is hours, days or a week or two) you will find out that your characters will have redonculous amounts of renown just by doing crazy shit Werewolves do.

                  Being an Elder requires you to be a part of the society for a while. And just because you might have the minimum requirement for the renown does not mean the other Elders will feel that you are ready. I tend to keep my guideline like this - you can get to Rank 2 within the first year of your Werewolfing around. Rank 3 should be within your first three years. Four requires you to be around for 5, and 5 at least 10.

                  This benchmark that I've set up for how long it takes you to be recognized is mostly a gut feeling, and it's not supported by the rules. Also, I allow people to sidestep the time limit through truly extraordinary deeds that might endebt the Garou nation or the Fera. This mighthappen only once in their careers, though.


                  What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                  • #10
                    I would say that the sample Renown awards in the book are for Rank 1 PC. At higher ranks those things are expected of you and should not give as much renown. For example, gaining 4 points of Wisdom for creating a Fetish is alright for a Rank 1 Theurge, but should only give 1 Wisdom for a Rank 3 Theurge (it's kinda expected of them) and 2 for a Rank 3 anything else IMO. You can change around how much a certain thing gives dependign on Rank. Another example is killing a young vampire that should give 2 Glory. Such thinbgs should be expected by older Garou and shouldn't give that much Renown for Rank 3+ IMO.

                    It might make the "Leveling Crawl" go a bit slower and make sure that the PCs don't gain Rank as fast.





                    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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                    • #11
                      It's kind of tricky.

                      Depending on the group, the scenes you're running, how often they screw up, and how often someone does their Rite of Accomplishments for them, how fast they'll snatch up Renown is hard to predict. As well, even if they have 10/10/10 permanent Renown, they still need to achieve their Rank challenges to put that to any real use (outside of a few special cases). Rank challenges are supposed to get harder and harder to complete; generally either with high odds of failure, or quests that can take considerable amounts of time (though a lot of STs don't reward Renown for Rank challenges).

                      The problem for the players though, is that if their temporary Renown doesn't get converted to permanent Renown relatively regularly, it can feel punishing. Since temp. caps at 10, even if you do enough to be worthy of 50 temp. dots of one Renown, you can never have more than 10, and never get more than one permanent at a time. So it creates an incentive to not go out and do stuff until that's handled. Then, if they're sitting on a lot of perm. Renown, but can't get/succeed in Rank challenges, it can harm fun for similar reasons.

                      Pacing this is... hard to get right at first. And there's not much advice we can give because each group's schedule, how much gets done in a session, etc. is variable.

                      One thing to do though, is not worry too much about things going fast. Rank has a few perks, but it's not like Generation in Vampire in terms of impact of the characters managing to boost it regularly. In the books, exceptional Garou rise in Rank fairly quickly. There are sample NPCs that hit Rank 3 or 4 in ~5 years in-game time. So if you're not running things in "real time" the game isn't going to break if they've managed to get to higher Ranks.

                      Basically, it's better for your first time or two for Renown/Rank to go "too fast," than go too slow and discourage the players by making it so they're not getting the rewards for the in-game actions the game says they should be getting.

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                      • #12
                        I give them at the end of each game session, with the XP. It seems to be the best approach.

                        Sometimes I don't give temp renown out at all, but note them for myself. Players should be kind of clueless how much temp renown their character has. They can at any time try to convince another player or NPC to initiate a Rite of Accomplishment during a moot. I have NPCs do that on their own, if the temp renown is at 10 for a session or two - depending on the flow of the game.

                        For me it seems more logical, to have the temp renown hidden from the PCs and also have it increase above 10, so that one tiny misstep before the moot will not make them nonviable for the Rite of Accomplishment.

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                        • #13
                          Honestly, this isn't likely to happen in your game, but I'm still saying it in general here.

                          Please don't make the players fill out their renown. I've seen it done in online games, and its always been pretty much surfing the renown chart for fitting things.

                          Give renown based on what happened in-game, especially anything noteworthy.


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                          • #14
                            I don't understand what you mean by "make the players fill out their renown"


                            Regarding other stuff discussed here:
                            -I will definitely give renown based on the rank of the garu. Killing the same enemy shouldn’t be worth the seam for a Rank 1 than for a Rank 5.
                            -I'll give the Renown together with the XP, except if something very epic (or wrong) happens during the game. Issuing the renown then will enhance the feeling of the scene.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by erSito View Post
                              I don't understand what you mean by "make the players fill out their renown"
                              In online games, it used to be a typical that all renown was submitted by the players themselves for ST approval. This, naturally, meant that the players looked solely to the renown chart for examples of how the renown was done.


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