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How to issue renown during the game

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  • #16
    Ohh. I see. Bad idea.
    Thanks for the clarification.

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    • #17
      The system the garou nation has in place stops plucky Young garou shorting up the ranks. To attain each rank they have to fulfill a task and the higher the rank, the harder the task. In long term campaigns you should from time to time have players fail to rank up and maybe even loose a bit of renown based on how badly they did. It isn't dungeons and dragons where you automatically level up when you meet the requirement. In rare cases it's possible to actually drop ranks based upon action. If your thinking long term chronicles and drama fuel create shades of grey choices rather than black and white choices so it's possible for these events to happen.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Cptmachine View Post
        The system the garou nation has in place stops plucky Young garou shorting up the ranks. To attain each rank they have to fulfill a task and the higher the rank, the harder the task. In long term campaigns you should from time to time have players fail to rank up and maybe even loose a bit of renown based on how badly they did. It isn't dungeons and dragons where you automatically level up when you meet the requirement. In rare cases it's possible to actually drop ranks based upon action. If your thinking long term chronicles and drama fuel create shades of grey choices rather than black and white choices so it's possible for these events to happen.
        It's not enough. Play something for 4 years out of game and 2 in game, and you'll have people who have broken past the 10 dot limit for renown and that still shouldn't be elders.


        What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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        • #19
          Define "should be an Elder" in any meaningful fashion.

          The game, both mechanically, and in-universe, simply defines it as, "anyone worthy enough to be considered for a Rank challenge, that then passes it." There's no inherent XP level for it, and no reason to expect that every Elder has made it there by virtue of slowly slogging through things until they've proven themselves after a decade or two of service.

          There are lots of higher Ranking NPCs in the books that shot up the Ranks because they managed to pull of a stupid risky endeavor of some sort, or are just that good that they rose up multiple times faster than most Garou ever will. A lot of Elder NPCs in the books are not that old (Garou being warriors in a war tends to mean short lifespans), and not that high in XP.

          The game presents the bar for Elder in WtA a lot lower than VtM or MtA do for equivalent standing in-game, because the Garou are ruled by individuals who are hundreds or thousands of years old. It's mostly run by people in their 30s-40s. The other games also don't gate PC-intended higher level powers behind such things. You want (and your ST allows Flaws), you can make a vampire that starts with five dots in a Disicpline, and easily make a mage that starts with 3 in a Sphere. The Garou have to grind through Rank and Renown issues to even get access to second tier powers.

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          • #20
            It's about how Elders are presented in fluff. Elders have all been active for prolonged periods of time. For instance even Albrecht and his Silver Pack started out as higher ranks then 1, and Evan who was one of the first people he and Mari saved is not Rank 5. I mean, do you see it as realistic for someone to go from Rank 0 to Rank 5 in a year?


            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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            • #21
              0 to 5 isn't a fair question. 0 means Cub, which isn't a starting level character.

              Is making it from Cliath to Elder in a year something that should be common? No. Is it impossible? Also no. But that's easily handled in what Adren, Athro, and Elder Rank challenges are presented as. These are supposed to be hard enough that most characters will fail a few of them, and difficult enough that you can't just do them in a weekend.

              I definitely don't see any problem with the setting as presented having exceptional Garou (aka PCs) getting to Adren in a year. Any Garou that's facing enough action to gain Renown that quickly, and is doing that well on their Rank challenges, is a rising star of their Tribe and is going to get elevated fast. Karin Jarlsdottir is only 25, and she's an Athro that runs a major Fenrir Sept.

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              • #22
                I believe one of the biggest problems in the "1 to 5 rank in a 1 year period" is hour the ST handles the-time-between-stories.

                My players just had their preludes (individual games, covered a few years). Our first real session was going through the Rite of Passage book adventure (I expect 2 game sessions). After it they'll become rank 1.
                Once they're rank 1 they'll go to visit the clan they learned with (individual sessions, covering an approximate 6 months period).
                Then another adventur, where they get XPs and renown massively. Then another downtime with individual sessions covering around a year.
                Then a second real adventur: they'll probably make there the rank 2, etc.

                That would be 5 game sessions to go from rank 1 to 2 and around 2 years of in-game-time.

                The problem I've detected in many of your feedback is you jump into the next adventure the day after the characters end the previous one.
                Why don't you put some time between stories? It's not realistic the characters just go from big story to big story, let them take care of their stuff. Spend a couple of years in an umbra quest, some other years taking a degree on [instead your favorite knowledge here] and some more time looking for that amazing fetish...

                This way in-game-time will pass much faster and you won't have teen-ager Elders. They'll have play the same number of adventure, but they'll be 40 or 50, rather than 21

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                • #23
                  I don't have a problem with 25 for 4 (6-11 years as active Garou). I do have a problem with 1 year for 4 though. 3 is probably the maximum I would allow for a truly exceptional Garou. I mean... we are talking about deeds great enough to at least qualify for two grand quests to increase rank and completing them successfully while still doing all your sept and tribal duties AND adventuring enough to become a legend in a short time.


                  What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                  • #24
                    I could have sworn I saw requirements somewhere for a minimum amount of time to be spent at each rank before advancement was possible... maybe that was just homebrew rules for a LARP or something though. Either way it makes sense. Meteoric rises are all fine and good, but with the rewards-as-written, if you play the game for any amount of time PCs will accrue renown incredibly fast. Going from wet-behind-the-ears pup to elder in the span of two or three years is kinda dumb, and I don't think the rules reflect the universe very well in that regard.

                    Originally posted by erSito View Post
                    The problem I've detected in many of your feedback is you jump into the next adventure the day after the characters end the previous one.
                    Why don't you put some time between stories? It's not realistic the characters just go from big story to big story, let them take care of their stuff. Spend a couple of years in an umbra quest, some other years taking a degree on [instead your favorite knowledge here] and some more time looking for that amazing fetish...
                    My game does have a fair amount of down-time, gaps of weeks or months; the PC's Garou raise families and pursue individual life goals, ect, but even if you are only confronting Wyrm-shits every few weeks on average, that still adds up quite fast over a couple years. Garou are capable of healing quick and getting back on the front lines anyway; it feels irresponsible for Gaia's sons and daughters to lackadaisically wander about without slaughtering the Wyrm's minions. My PC's pack is on the cusp of rank 4 after only 2 and a half years of play, and would likely be there already if they weren't good-for-nothing servants of old Coyote. Taking breaks helps, but it doesn't come close to fully alleviating the problem.
                    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 03-02-2016, 11:02 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Skipping downtime and having back-to-back adventures will have PC rise a lot faster than might be intended.

                      Also, math to the rescue.
                      If the goal was to get all three types of renown at level 10, that would mean one had to get 30 Rites of Accomplishment. Each is a Rite of Renown - celebrating the accomplishments of an individual. They are celebrated amongst the individual's peers, that means a gathering of sorts, usually a moot. Moots happen once a month, or all 29.6 days. That's 12,3 moots a year.

                      So, with three dots to start in renown and assuming one could use one Rite to turn all three renown types from temp to permanent in one go, it could be achieved in one year to get to renown ten.
                      But, if you assume that you can't use one Rite for multiple renowns at the same time and you get only one per moot, than it would take 27 moots, that's 2.2 years.

                      But, now consider how that looks: the character would to have been praised every month for two years for being glorious, wise and honourable - meaning the character would have had to show such behaviour in an increasing fashion constantly to be viable for the Rite every damn month. My best guess is, that even the most naive Talesinger (moot office iirc) would realize, that this can't be right and just. Not if other garou get poor temp renown for performing tasks like guardian or sept office for a full year.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                        But, now consider how that looks: the character would to have been praised every month for two years for being glorious, wise and honourable - meaning the character would have had to show such behaviour in an increasing fashion constantly to be viable for the Rite every damn month. My best guess is, that even the most naive Talesinger (moot office iirc) would realize, that this can't be right and just. Not if other garou get poor temp renown for performing tasks like guardian or sept office for a full year.
                        I think it comes down to the problem that PC's are naturally prone to be more then most other NPC's. Especially if the mentioned NPC's stick around the Caern doing day to day stuff, while the PC's go galavanting all over the Umbra, tearing down fomori factories and bringing back lost artifacts. Even with other Garou pushing the Wyrm and their duties hard, they are not likely to be as active or as fruitful as the PC's (even if just because they're not protagonists).



                        What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                        • #27
                          NPCs not being protegonists is exactly the reason the PCs get more to do. Still, should they get that much more renown for doing all that stuff?

                          Shouldn't the Elders assign jobs to NPC packs, too?
                          Shouldn't NPC packs challenge the PC pack to get a certain 'free for all' assignment, too?
                          Shouldn't the PCs adhere to the creeds and be generous, also with the opportunities to gain renown, by letting their peers also have them ?

                          I think the most impact in the way the player characters gain renown are
                          1. the ST awarding too favourably and for actions that aren't that noteworthy to begin with.
                          2. the ST and players heading from one story to the next, without any downtime - and even within stories having often no clear bookkeeping about time, since it hinders the flow of playing.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                            NPCs not being protegonists is exactly the reason the PCs get more to do. Still, should they get that much more renown for doing all that stuff?

                            Shouldn't the Elders assign jobs to NPC packs, too?
                            Shouldn't NPC packs challenge the PC pack to get a certain 'free for all' assignment, too?
                            Shouldn't the PCs adhere to the creeds and be generous, also with the opportunities to gain renown, by letting their peers also have them ?

                            I think the most impact in the way the player characters gain renown are
                            1. the ST awarding too favourably and for actions that aren't that noteworthy to begin with.
                            2. the ST and players heading from one story to the next, without any downtime - and even within stories having often no clear bookkeeping about time, since it hinders the flow of playing.
                            I think you're being a bit disingenuous here to people who have been running this at least as long as you have. By definition of the PC's being protagonists they will always be doing crazier and weirder stuff then anyone else. As such they are quite likely to get absurd amounts of Renown even with all the cockups they pull to lose Renown along the way. There's probably a mere handful of groups around the whole world who will have the experience and the renown of the PC's - people like say Albrecht & Co, and even they took their while to become true legends.

                            If you're playing a pack that's spending all their time in one Caern and never getting out, sure, the gains will be small, with spikes for threats that appear nearby and you get to wipe out. That's probably the usecase for the Renown system as presented, plus it's not really been tested for long games, because face it, most games never get into double digit numbers of sessions. Mind you, I'm pretty sure that PC Caerns get more trouble and tribulations then any of the printed Caerns, which seem quite calm.

                            But if you end up following your totem across the world, trying to rescue a dying changing breed, do diplomacy with the changing breeds, go from hotspot to hotspot, or work on building the Ahadi... you will have tons of renown as recognized not only by your own sept, but septs, shifters and spirits accross the world.



                            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                            • #29
                              But that is kind of my point, it depends on how you run your game and probably on how you think it should be run...

                              One can, perfectly reasonably devise from the core books that WtA can be played as a game of savage horror in which the PCs form a local pack, that is send by their Elders to missions in the region - without ever doing the over the top world changing heroic stuff. As you said, that is for a select few, and I'm not sure if the PCs, being the protagonists and all, should be or need to be these guys.

                              So, what I'm saying is, it is perfectly fine to run a WtA game in a Jessica Jones level instead of an Avengers level, and it still be Marvel's WtA

                              But if stuff like "renown gain"-mechanics break in the type of game you playing, you might need to consider that they weren't designed, or at least not tweaked, for the way you play.


                              I, personally, find it silly and stupid when in any given scenario the secondary characters don't evolve or seem to just exist when relevant to the story. This doesn't make a full immersive world, imo.
                              Sure, one can go tongue in cheek, like in "case colsed" where Inspector Meguire remaks that "whenever there is a mureder in tokyo, usually Kogoro Mori and the kids are already there". But I try to be more realistic about my WtA Settings, and that includes coming up with stuff the NPCs do, their agendas, their victories and losses and so on. And while the PCs are the protagonists, the world still doesn't revolve around them.

                              And sure, things would be different, if I had run plots where Gaia's survival was at stake, but I don't run those kinds of plots, because I find them lesser rewarding. And it would be kin of stale, if every adventure to run was yet another world changing event....

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                              • #30
                                I still think you don't get what I'm talking about, since I'm not talking about globe trotting SuperShifters. I'm talking about normal stuff a pack is going to do. If you really play the Fera Globetrotters, you might be right, but if you actually play a normal game and have the characters do all the stuff a pack does - protecting the Caern, hunting the monsters, protecting their loved ones, talking with spirits, hunting down chiminage, rescuing lost cubs, telling their legends at moots, performing challenges and trials, and generally doing their duty to bash the Wyrm's head in and coping with the shit the Weaver and the Wyld will toss into their lives.

                                The lives of the Garou are eventful and full of tension and drama. They live their lives fast and most of them don't get the luxury of dying in their old age, heck, most of them don't even live up to their middle age. That doesn't mean that they are static, but being an Elder is supposed to mean something. You're supposed to be a legend who has survived what most will not, one of the few who are truly the moves and the shakes among the Garou. In Werewolf Authority indeed does equal asskicking.

                                I have no idea why you have the concept of "Other garou being static", but it's a given fact that the PC's end up in more shit then any other character in any other game. That's kinda how RPG games work.


                                What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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