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Werewolf Fertility Clinics and Sperm Donation

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  • Werewolf Fertility Clinics and Sperm Donation

    So, I was just wondering if anyone had ever used fertility clinics or sperm donation for producing Garou? Since a Garou has a ten percent chance of producing Garou children (and a 90% chance of producing Garou Kinfolk) when they mate with normal human beings, it would make since for the Glass Walkers to start taking over fertility clinics and using Garou sperm for 10% of the women who are purchasing their services. Around 64,000 babies are born through IVF in the USA each year now so, if the Glass Walkers were able to gain control of 10% of the fertility clinics in the USA, they could produce 64 Garou children and 576 Garou Kinfolk every year (the current Garou population of the USA is estimated at ~640, ~1:500,000, so an extra 64 Garou per year would be a population explosion).

  • #2
    No. As an ST, I'd be unlikely to allow this to actually work. It smacks too much of the Weaver. Lots of flavor text reason you can give for why it fails. However, I would be willing to include this as some kind of plot point where DNA or some other faction tries to artificially create Garou this way. Or perhaps have some Glass Walker mad scientist try to figure out why it isn't able to work and perhaps create some kind of unique or ultra-rare event when it does work. I think there would be good stories to come out of that.

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    • #3
      I doubt it is the sperm specifically or something so simple as genetics that leads to it. So really it should be the act itself that's important.


      On the other hand why all Wolves aren't kinfolk is a bigger question..

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      • #4
        It may just be me, but sometimes I think there is an overemphasis on running numbers....

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post
          It may just be me, but sometimes I think there is an overemphasis on running numbers....
          Agreed.
          Especially for Werewolf where logic and science go out the window in favor of the reason "because spirits say so"


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          • #6
            Even getting away from the numbers focus, I do think it would make sense for there to be some Glass Walkers working in fertility. The "It's too Weaver" aspect goes out the window once we're talking about the most Weaver-happy Tribe. Of course, taking over enough clinics and getting lots of Garou sperm in the system (keeping in mind that there's little good data on how many children are born from donor gametes, a lot of IVF uses the gametes of two people that can't conceive naturally rather than donor sperm/eggs) is a pretty unlikely scenario to lead to reliable Garou births.

            It really should be a big "thing" but there's no reason why it might not be a major deal in a specific city with a lot of GW influence.

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            • #7
              How would you run such a story? There might be 50 Glass Walkers in the USA, with 20 of them being fertile homid males, so they would have to convince twenty werewolves to contribute to their program. They might be able to convince the Children of Gaia and the Shadow Lords to contribute every month (though I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation), but I am not sure that they could get anyone else that they wanted to contribute. The Bone Gnawers might be willing to contribute, but the Glass Walkers would probably not accept their contributions. The Black Furies would be unable to contribute, Silver Fangs would be too proud, the Red Talons would be repulsed by the entire idea, and the Stargazers would think that it was too crass. Of the rest, I am not sure. What do you all think?

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              • #8
                I wonder if there may be some spirtual reason that this couldn't be done. Garou aren't purely physical creatures, they are beings of spirit and flesh. Perhaps there are limited spiritual resources to empower the large number of Garou such activities could produce. Alternatively, maybe such large numbers of garou offspring couldn't be raised effectively and could cause chaos for future generations. Those are just my own speculations though, I don't recall anything mentioned in any book that would prevent this method from being highly effective and the Glass Walkers would certainly be willing to do it along with some other Tribes. Black Spiral Dancers would do it too.
                Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 09-03-2016, 01:51 AM.

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                • #9
                  Your baseline population estimate for North America is demonstrably too low (e.g. there are 52 Glass Walkers in the New York region alone, another fifteen in the notoriously un-urban Southeast Appalachian range, with ~150 - ~200 of all tribes in that region. Based on figures released in 2002's ST Handbook, there is roughly one garou to every 500,000 humans and 30% of those Garou are in North America. Etc.) If we're going to do numbers, we need to at least do them right.

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                  • #10
                    Well, in that case, the number of Garou in North America would be ~4,500, which would make them less than 1:100,000 of the North American population, which would make them much more common than I thought. Can you give me a page number for the North American numbers?

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                    • #11
                      Page 33 or so has the breakdown.The same book also explains that there is no Garou gene and the creation of a Garou is largely a spiritual concern. Even without that source, the numbers remain demonstrably too low.

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                      • #12
                        Where? I am seeing nothing about there not being a Garou gene or about any population numbers. Can you specific a heading under which I can find them? Not that it terribly matters, the fertility clinic scheme is not limited by lack of Garou but lack of human women.

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                        • #13
                          Page 33 details the population figure of 1:500,000 and it's breakdown into various areas of the globe. Make sure you're looking at the 2002 Storyteller's Handbook. I'll quote it verbatim.

                          "Overall, there is about one Garou per 500,000 people in areas relatively hospitable to werewolves." Earlier on the same page, "North America, Europe and Asia each host about one-third of the
                          world’s Garou, with the remaining ten percent spread through South America, Africa and Australia." The repudiation of the Garou gene is on page 20.

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                          • #14
                            The population numbers in the early Rage books are very suspect. To get all the Garou listed in Rage Across New York, which is where the 52 Glass walkers in New York are from, it is more like 1 Garou per 50,000 people. Australia has a similar ratio. Vancouver has even more Garou than that ratio. It is a far cry from the one per 500,000 listed afterwards.

                            If we use that later ratio, the early Rage books are off by a factor of ten. Even if we take into consideration the Garou ratio is only generalized, and does not reflect local population (I can easily imagine low populated wilderness ratios in Yukon and elsewhere to have far more Garou than the human population would indicate, meaning higher populated areas would likely have less Garou) then Rage Across New York and other early books are still way, way off.

                            If we take the 500,000 ratio seriously, it is hard to defend Rage Across New York whose 321 Garou (not counting any Black Spiral Dancers) reflects a population of around 160 million. New York's actual population is just under 20 million, and the entire United States is 320 million. That would mean half of the entire Garou expected in the US is in the New York area. If we used the one per 500,000 ratio, we'd expect the total Garou population to be around 40. Even if we add some of the population of the surrounding areas and decide that there is a higher presence of Garou in the area for whatever reason, we would fall very short of the canonical numbers.

                            Dark Alliance: Vancouver lists 368 Garou. Rage Across Appalachia has less firm numbers, but is probably around 160. So in those three books alone, there are some 850 Garou. If we use the 500,000 number, that is more than the entire Garou population should be for Canada and the United States and almost as much as you would expect by adding Mexico. That would mean the rest of North America has almost no Garou.

                            This is one reason I only use canon for inspiration instead of treating it like the law. Even if we try a "No-Prize" style solution and explain how it isn't really wrong, it just does not make any sense. The populations listed in the Rage books and the later statement of the human:Garou ratio are just incompatible.

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                            • #15
                              The Garou populations should follow the lupine populations. If we look at the gray wolf populations, 10% are found in Europe, 30% are found in North America, and 60% are found in Asia (primarily China, Far East Russia, Kazakhstan, and Mongolia), so it would make sense to have 30% of the Garou population in North America (what would have effectively happened during the colonization of North America is that the European Garou stole wolf kinfolk and human kinfolk from the three North American tribes). That is assuming, however, that Garou populations are linked to gray wolf population.

                              It is probably wrong to only look at gray wolf populations however, since Garou are known to breed with every member of canis closely related to the gray wolf except for Coyote (which could be considered to be a lost tribe of Garou that was 'cursed' to be without Rage) and Dogs (which are too domesticated). Of the remaining species of canis, the African golden wolf and the golden jackal are the only ones that have been mentioned in the books that have sufficient population to be worth discussing. The African golden wolf, for example, is thought to have a population of around 200,000. The golden jackal (which is found throughout South Asia and Southeast Europe) is thought to have a population of around 200,000. Black backed jackals and side stripped jackals are too distantly related to the gray wolf to support Garou populations without Mokole assistance.

                              So, if we consider the three populations of canines (African golden wolf, golden jackal, and gray wolf), the Garou population should be larger and/or more distributed because their population canis kinfolk have a combined population of 600,000 and are distributed across four continents. The Garou populations should be 3.4% Europe, 10% North America, 33.3% Africa, and 53.3% Asia. I would say that the African golden wolf and the golden jackal Garou are primarily going to primarily belong to the Bone Gnawers, Children of Gaia, Glass Walkers, Red Talons, and Silent Striders Tribes.

                              Of course, an interesting scenario would involve the gray wolf Garou deliberately ignoring the existence of the African golden wolf and golden jackal Garou populations out of racism (both human and wolf racism). Since the three groups of Garou would have always had equal populations, the gray wolf Garou could not have exterminated them like they did the Bunyip. In this case, there could be three times as many Garou as the official numbers, because the official numbers only include gray wolf Garou, but the gray wolf Garou refuse to work with their 'inferior' cousins because their 'inferior' cousins do not acknowledge their right to rule.

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