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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post

    It seems they hate Garou and keep them only to humilate and to show how cool otber gamelines in comparison.
    I don't think so. Most Garou aren't stupid. They are just heroes from ancient times who cannot (and will not) adjust to modern times.


    Warrior of the Rainbow
    Saint among the sinners
    Pure among the dirt
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    • #47
      Originally posted by Furoan View Post
      ...why do you keep showing up in every thread and going back to that same point? Every thread you seem to pop up and bring up how much OPP/WW hates the Garou.
      Maybe it's not about OPP/WW but he just doesn't like W:tA. I think it's one of the most difficult game to play. Try to earn some glory when you can find yourself on Google maps. Try to fight the Wyrm and maintain the Veil. Try to be honorable when everybody around you (maybe even your closest friend, the pack) show you that it's not worth it. Try to show your wisdom when it make you to throw away modern world. He's wrong in one thing: it's not the publisher who decide if the Garou are smart (enough). It's the storyteller.


      Warrior of the Rainbow
      Saint among the sinners
      Pure among the dirt
      Loser among winners

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Furoan View Post
        ...why do you keep showing up in every thread and going back to that same point? Every thread you seem to pop up and bring up how much OPP/WW hates the Garou.
        Becouse canon always tend to humilate Garou in favor of other gameline. And even 'inside' WtA Garou constantly screw up, even in the most obvious situations.
        Like, any pack of Glasswalkers could create such clinics. Or just use the existing one.
        Last edited by Lashet; 06-09-2022, 05:14 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

          Maybe it's not about OPP/WW but he just doesn't like W:tA. I think it's one of the most difficult game to play. Try to earn some glory when you can find yourself on Google maps. Try to fight the Wyrm and maintain the Veil. Try to be honorable when everybody around you (maybe even your closest friend, the pack) show you that it's not worth it. Try to show your wisdom when it make you to throw away modern world. He's wrong in one thing: it's not the publisher who decide if the Garou are smart (enough). It's the storyteller.
          TL;DR: They are canonicaly loosers. Unlike vampires, btw.
          Last edited by Lashet; 06-09-2022, 05:18 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Lashet View Post

            TL;DR: They are canonicaly loosers. Unlike vampires, btw.
            Find me one quote that says the Apocalypse is the end of the world (not the definition from wikipedia). Even in ToJ: Apocalypse are few options for it and the garou can win in at least one of them.


            Warrior of the Rainbow
            Saint among the sinners
            Pure among the dirt
            Loser among winners

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

              Find me one quote that says the Apocalypse is the end of the world (not the definition from wikipedia). Even in ToJ: Apocalypse are few options for it and the garou can win in at least one of them.
              They eccentualy failed already, sinse their let that happened. Even IF they'll save Gaya, all their race already deserve to be punished (and W5 seems to change oWoD cosmology).
              Not to mention they are inferior spice comparing with other splats (Vampires, Mages, Fae, Demons). Even though mechanicaly Garou elderhas a chance against vampire elder (e.g. Prince Albhert vs Mithra), there is no any canononical fight that support it. Yet a lot of them, where vampire elders screw Garou as hard as they want.
              Last edited by Lashet; 06-09-2022, 05:55 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                They eccentualy failed already, sinse their let that happened.
                They didn't and it hasn't. At least, not in a sensibly-developed setting.

                Even IF they'll save Gaya, all their race already deserve to be punished (and W5 seems to change oWoD cosmology).
                Not to mention they are inferior spice comparing with other splats (Vampires, Mages, Fae, Demons). Even though mechanicaly Garou elderhas a chance against vampire elder (e.g. Prince Albhert vs Mithra), there is no any canononical fight that support it. Yet a lot of them, where vampire elders screw Garou as hard as they want.
                They've already been punished multiple times by the consequences of their own actions; W:tA isn't a game where you're awaiting cosmic retribution for crimes, but rather what you're going to do about problems right this second. Meanwhile, V:tM's themes are that they'll be arbitrarily judged and likely turned into ash during the end times because they've been tooling around for millennia.

                And if there aren't big crossover fights, that'd be another factor of thematic differences. It wouldn't really do well to make a setting for Vampire where you and all of the canon NPCs get slaughtered by werewolves all the time and have to make new characters. Vampire eschews fighting; it hates direct conflict and fears an end to its ride. W:tA accepts that anyone could die horribly at any time, so you might as well go out fighting. Garou, being mortal, aren't planning to slink around in the shadows forever, either.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                  They didn't and it hasn't. At least, not in a sensibly-developed setting.



                  They've already been punished multiple times by the consequences of their own actions; W:tA isn't a game where you're awaiting cosmic retribution for crimes, but rather what you're going to do about problems right this second. Meanwhile, V:tM's themes are that they'll be arbitrarily judged and likely turned into ash during the end times because they've been tooling around for millennia.

                  And if there aren't big crossover fights, that'd be another factor of thematic differences. It wouldn't really do well to make a setting for Vampire where you and all of the canon NPCs get slaughtered by werewolves all the time and have to make new characters. Vampire eschews fighting; it hates direct conflict and fears an end to its ride. W:tA accepts that anyone could die horribly at any time, so you might as well go out fighting. Garou, being mortal, aren't planning to slink around in the shadows forever, either.
                  They had one job and already almost ruined it. Despite tons of advantages they had. Btw, define 'sensebly-developed setting'?

                  They wasn't punished enough. IMO, every Garou (except BSD since they're cool) deserves to... let's say in terms of ASOIAF, to meet their Ramsay Snow (image Prince Albrecht turned into Reek, or some proud Black Fury - into Jaine Poole).

                  I don't ask for canon NPC VtM been constantly slaughtered. In fact, I ask for ONE duel to show e.g., Albrecht is so badass he can solo 5generation, 1000 y.o. Elder. But that's won't ever happened - Garou exist in a big picture only for the Worf Effect sake.
                  Last edited by Lashet; 06-10-2022, 02:36 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                    They eccentualy failed already, sinse their let that happened.
                    So in Vampire: the Masquerade the best thing you can do is to go sunbathing because the Atideluvians will raise no matter what you do and if they don't get you the Thin Bloods will. In Changeling you should plunge a cold iron dagger into your heart because Eternal Winter will come anyway and there's nothing you can do about it. I don't know Mage very well but from what I know there's still a chance for at least some of them so assuming that you are on the winning side (Traditions, Technocracy, others) you have 33% chance of success. Do you want to risk loosing? Wraith is too personal to judge that: if your Passions are simple you can transcend in two weeks, if you have higher ambitions you can wander through the Shadowlands till Oblivion come. I won't talk about Demons because I don't know a thing about them (except a general description) and I still don't know if I want to. I've got some troubles placing them into the world.


                    Warrior of the Rainbow
                    Saint among the sinners
                    Pure among the dirt
                    Loser among winners

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

                      So in Vampire: the Masquerade the best thing you can do is to go sunbathing because the Atideluvians will raise no matter what you do and if they don't get you the Thin Bloods will. In Changeling you should plunge a cold iron dagger into your heart because Eternal Winter will come anyway and there's nothing you can do about it. I don't know Mage very well but from what I know there's still a chance for at least some of them so assuming that you are on the winning side (Traditions, Technocracy, others) you have 33% chance of success. Do you want to risk loosing? Wraith is too personal to judge that: if your Passions are simple you can transcend in two weeks, if you have higher ambitions you can wander through the Shadowlands till Oblivion come. I won't talk about Demons because I don't know a thing about them (except a general description) and I still don't know if I want to. I've got some troubles placing them into the world.
                      At least all of them can make fun now. And to become something greate like Mithra for vamps.
                      Also, isn't according new lore (5th edition) every splats' version of Apocalypse just happened - and noone noticed?

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                      • #56
                        My opinion, based on the posts I read (first page and from the thread's necromancy forwards):

                        Tracking the children wouldn't be hard because it is actually standard procedure for health-related services. The clinic would keep track of every single procedure, how the pregnancy is going, the health of the child, and know exactly who were impregnated with which donor in every single case, just because this is their job (also keeping it secret, because that's also their job). Losing or messing up with this data would actually be a major scandal and grounds for closing the clinic altogether in most countries.

                        I don't think Magadon would be a problem either. Any GW owned company would naturally chose with extra caution where they source things, and possibly deal exclusively with other GW owned companies, not only to guarantee quality, but for a better control of logistics and get proper tools for their supernatural shenanigans. While it isn't impossible to have their enemies finding up and messing with the project, it shouldn't be any more vulnerable than their baseline risk.

                        But that said, and setting aside the many ways it can fail or be less effective than normal, I doubt such a plan would be carried over like stated because this is a plain bad idea. Impregnating normal women just adds too many variables in the equation that are completely unnecessary when this plan could just be carried over with Kinfolk. Kinfolk are already a sizable population, and one you can work with directly, knowing exactly what they're signing up to. You can help Kinfolk couples with a hard time conceiving, you can offer benefits for Kinfolk families, you can help Kinfolk women that want a child or offer then a job for their cooperation. You would still be increasing the numbers of Kinfolk and Garou while making the community stronger instead of creating problems outside of it.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                          They had one job and already almost ruined it. Despite tons of advantages they had. Btw, define 'sensebly-developed setting'?
                          Yes, a setting that doesn't break itself right out of the gate by going against its own premise. Garou are supposed to be in a place where the modern generation can turn things around. That's the core idea, not an angst parade of "oh well, everything is already dead". That's how BSDs think.

                          They wasn't punished enough. IMO, every Garou (except BSD since they're cool) deserves to... let's say in terms of ASOIAF, to meet their Ramsay Snow (image Prince Albrecht turned into Reek, or some proud Black Fury - into Jaine Poole).
                          I think that you need to put down the GRRM.

                          I don't ask for canon NPC VtM been constantly slaughtered. In fact, I ask for ONE duel to show e.g., Albrecht is so badass he can solo 5generation, 1000 y.o. Elder. But that's won't ever happened - Garou exist in a big picture only for the Worf Effect sake.
                          Garou shape the setting where vampires stay out of the wilderness if they don't want to end up a pile of ash on the ground. It's hard to set up a duel when the expected outcome for vampires is akin to what happens if, spoilers for Might and Magic 5, you don't bring the hyperspace box when Corack inside to fight Sheltem. Automatic game over, no chance to fight. Your opponent auto-wins initiative, is on fire, and has a weapon that can deal enough damage to kill you in one hit. And, even if you manage to hit back, if you kill them, they get a chance to not die due to Rage recovery. Tell me, what is this going to prove?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            it shouldn't be any more vulnerable than their baseline risk.

                            But that said, and setting aside the many ways it can fail or be less effective than normal, I doubt such a plan would be carried over like stated because this is a plain bad idea. Impregnating normal women just adds too many variables in the equation that are completely unnecessary when this plan could just be carried over with Kinfolk. Kinfolk are already a sizable population, and one you can work with directly, knowing exactly what they're signing up to. You can help Kinfolk couples with a hard time conceiving, you can offer benefits for Kinfolk families, you can help Kinfolk women that want a child or offer then a job for their cooperation. You would still be increasing the numbers of Kinfolk and Garou while making the community stronger instead of creating problems outside of it.
                            I'm more of a vampire fan and relatively new to WtA but the impression that I got was that, similar to the kindred's thin blood problem, that Garou were diminishing, not only due to the increasing strength and influence of their opponents but also due to a lack of kinfolk, or a lack of kinfok breeding true to create new kin or garou cubs. Like sometimes you would have the child of two kin or the child of a kin and garou be a human.

                            If that were the case I think the idea of spreading their shifter nature far and wide might become a more tempting option despite the risks.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                              Even if you manage to hit back, if you kill them, they get a chance to not die due to Rage recovery. Tell me, what is this going to prove?
                              That Garou are able to grow in power to something great, powerfull and beautiful (TM). Like Yaga, Mithra or some Archmage. Game mechanic kinda sorta allow this, the setting - not that much.

                              You need scenario? OK some Elder vamp go rouge, and werewolf Elder came to finish him (why alone? Well, his pack was busy to fight his brutes). Since when WW ever work hard on their scenarios?

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Devidramoth View Post
                                I'm more of a vampire fan and relatively new to WtA but the impression that I got was that, similar to the kindred's thin blood problem, that Garou were diminishing, not only due to the increasing strength and influence of their opponents but also due to a lack of kinfolk,
                                IIRC that's not the case, there are other problems, not this one.

                                There's the wolfkin problem, where Wolf Kinfolk are indeed diminishing. In a large part it happens because animal Kin need to remain wild or they loose it and become normal wolves, so even zoos are a desperate tactic to protect them and even then must be used sparingly and for a short time. The Garou society weakens without balancing Homid and Lupus breeds.

                                Also there's the problem with Lost Kinfolk, but that's less about human Kinfolk ceasing to be, and instead about them leaving their communities and through few generations forgetting what they are.

                                So Kinfolk that do not know what they are are the exact definition of the problem, not a solution. The same goes for Garou coming to be without any contact with Garou or Kinfolk society that can guide them.

                                Lost Cubs, the Garou that Change without any contact with Garou society, are easy preys for the BSD, to many other corrupting forces, and even to madness that can make them into dangerous threats. That way they're a liability more than an asset, because they not only won't increase the numbers of the Gaian Garou, but actually do so for their enemies and threats.

                                Kinfolk outnumber the Garou by a factor of a thousand at least, and they have communities geared towards supporting the needs of the Garou in some way. They're by far enough to support such a project, unless it grows to cover hundreds of clinics instead of one, and a far better option than releasing even more Lost Kin in the world and creating a statistic of disappearance of In-Vitro children, a very high-profile population, to get your hands on Cubs that will be then raised by Kinfolk all the same.


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                                #AutismPride
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