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  • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post


    Here's a thing, how can WoD reflect our world, if it is not allowed to? Stuff -needs- to progress, in order to match what our world is like today. Otherwise, it is stuck in 80s-90s and those decades do not reflect our world anymore, in pop culture or in general culture.

    As for the tribal examples you gave, all of those things have all ready happened in canon. There are Fianna who don't drink, Alberch earned the trust of his people outside klaives and purebreed, there are Red Talons who don't eat humans,etc. I understand that is how you see the setting, but in terms of the discussion, it does not reflect what has been written of the tribes.

    You're forgetting that he refuses to read the Tribe Novels, because the writers are 'inconsistent'. He's not going to be aware of any of that. x:

    Comment


    • Garou don't progress at the same rate as human society. Their principle weapon is thousands of years old and hasn't evolved (outside of glass walkers) while humanity built better and better weapons. Don't assume they'll be progressive because society is. Society isn't. Donald Trump is popular as part of a backlash against the PC crowd, and although western society is good to gays, trans people aren't in a great spot, especially outside the west. world of darkness more progressive than the real world is a no-no.
      And Solana, could you adress the argument there rather than make some poultry attack at credibility? I mean it's something you don't seem to understand, and i'm sorry that it's gone over your head, but please don't drag discussion down to that level. It's very simple: The black furies are criticised for being man-hating group, and if they stopped prioritising/excluding half the population, they'd possibly be a perfect tribe. Black furies are all too often the disagreeable and radical 'feminazi' stereotype you hear about. Now, under the logic that all tribes can be sumrised by flaws; if the black furies started to accept trans characters, then they'd suddenly be lumped in with the PC-to-the-Extreme I-Hate-Cis-White-Males kind of crowd. (which is also a weird departure to the literally binary view of Furys up till now)
      You do not want to transform black furies into a pro transgender group(Thematically, I think logistics has already been discussed well enough) unless you want to mock transgender activist, because as soon as you make the gender-disphoric guy into a Black Fury and send him in to kill the guy who wants to keep differently sexed bathrooms and have him murder a Silver fang for not using the right gender pronouns, you've made black furies into a parody. The black furies are criticised for focusing almost exclusively on 50% of the population: That one guy who focuses on less than 5%, rather than issues that effect a wider population, is going to be seen as worse.
      Last edited by Flower,Innocent; 10-02-2016, 06:23 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
        It's very simple: The black furies are criticised for being man-hating group, and if they stopped prioritising/excluding half the population, they'd possibly be a perfect tribe. Black furies are all too often the disagreeable and radical 'feminazi' stereotype you hear about. Now, under the logic that all tribes can be sumrised by flaws; if the black furies started to accept trans characters, then they'd suddenly be lumped in with the PC-to-the-Extreme I-Hate-Cis-White-Males kind of crowd. (which is also a weird departure to the literally binary view of Furys up till now)
        Here's the thing, some Furies would go for that. But not all. The tribe, as written, has young upstarts and older traditionalists clashing. And these are the exact issues they argue about, because the tribe's goal is to protect women and the sacredness of it. But good luck trying to figure out -what- a woman is and what they are not, and that is where Furies end up infrighting.

        Another thing is, that Furies are a global tribe. Just because western society doesn't really have a place for transpeople, doesn't mean others are the same. The idea of a middle gender or a contrary is present in some.

        Infact, The Book of Auspices Theurge chapter outright states that some theurges seek to change their gender, because such an act can bring spiritual power to them to challenge the laws of nature.

        Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
        You do not want to transform black furies into a pro transgender group(Thematically, I think logistics has already been discussed well enough) unless you want to mock transgender activist, because as soon as you make the gender-disphoric guy into a Black Fury and send him in to kill the guy who wants to keep differently sexed bathrooms and have him murder a Silver fang for not using the right gender pronouns, you've made black furies into a parody. The black furies are criticised for focusing almost exclusively on 50% of the population: That one guy who focuses on less than 5%, rather than issues that effect a wider population, is going to be seen as worse.
        And you know what would happen to that Fury? They would get punished severly and laughed at by the sept. Just because they were accepted, does not mean the Nation suddenly becomes a better place. Any intersex metis would feel annoyed at them, too. After all, the metis is hated for the same thing the Fury is supposed to be accepted with.

        Accepting trans people into Furies will not change the entire tribe, instead it can serve as a way to explore the whole idea of where the line of acceptance goes with each garou. Beatings and Elders misgendering would still ensue, but also rifts between different tribal factions.


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        • Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
          and although western society is good to gays, trans people aren't in a great spot, especially outside the west. world of darkness more progressive than the real world is a no-no.
          The fact that you think western society is "good" to the LQBT community says a lot for where you're coming from in this discussion. And the idea that the WoD has to be less progressive than the real world on every issue is just silly. You can have progression along with the world still going to shit.

          Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
          I mean it's something you don't seem to understand, and i'm sorry that it's gone over your head, but please don't drag discussion down to that level.
          So 2 things. Being condescending never helps dialog. And "drag discussion down to that level."? I feel like this thread has had one of the best conversations I've seen on here, especially dealing with such a sensitive subject.

          Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
          It's very simple: The black furies are criticised for being man-hating group, and if they stopped prioritising/excluding half the population, they'd possibly be a perfect tribe. Black furies are all too often the disagreeable and radical 'feminazi' stereotype you hear about.
          This is your point of view on them. I have never actually viewed the Black Furies this way. They aren't a "man-hating group", though they almost certainly have members of the tribe that fit that description. Female empowerment does not equal man-hating. You do know that right?

          Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
          You do not want to transform black furies into a pro transgender group (Thematically, I think logistics has already been discussed well enough) unless you want to mock transgender activist, because as soon as you make the gender-disphoric guy into a Black Fury and send him in to kill the guy who wants to keep differently sexed bathrooms and have him murder a Silver fang for not using the right gender pronouns, you've made black furies into a parody.
          Who really thinks that is the conclusion to having the Furies accept a transgender member? That is so far beyond reasonable to me, that I don't really understand how you view Werewolf in general.

          Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
          The black furies are criticised for focusing almost exclusively on 50% of the population: That one guy who focuses on less than 5%, rather than issues that effect a wider population, is going to be seen as worse.
          Being trans doesn't mean that the character is only going to focus on trans issues. It would be 1 aspect of the character, not the entirety of it.



          Comment


          • Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            Text Wall.
            For the love of god please start using paragraphs.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            Garou don't progress at the same rate as human society. Their principle weapon is thousands of years old and hasn't evolved (outside of glass walkers).
            The second sentence isn't even coherent and has no context.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            Don't assume they'll be progressive because society is. Society isn't. Donald Trump is popular as part of a backlash against the PC crowd, and although western society is good to gays, trans people aren't in a great spot, especially outside the west. world of darkness more progressive than the real world is a no-no.
            So, a few things - first of all don't assume that Donald Trump is good evidence for your argument - the guy is struggling to match/beat the least liked and most generally considered untrustworthy candidate in history. That does not speak well for him. Second, we're not talking about the World of Darkness, period. We're not talking about the Garou Nation, period. We're talking about a Tribe in the Garou Nation that is - at once - incredibly progressive and conservative. You seem to think Conservative means prejudiced against all the things you are prejudiced against, it doesn't. It means holding to old ideas. The Black Furies are conservative because their rites and procedures date back alllll the way to Ancient Greece. They are not based in conservative American values, they have no value for those as repeatedly stated in the Tribebook.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            And Solana, could you adress the argument there rather than make some poultry attack at credibility?
            You're really going to accuse me of an Ad Hominem attack after pages and pages of quoting every single "paragraph" you write with a reasoned response? That was a barb, and was directed at someone else as a joke, I wasn't even talking to you as a way of invalidating your argument. And, for the record, refusing to read those books is a relevant detail: it's evidence that you really have no idea what the person was talking about. So in this case, the Ad Hominem attack is valid because it's relevant to the discussion.

            https://youtu.be/SpgBkpb7xlU?t=447

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            I mean it's something you don't seem to understand, and i'm sorry that it's gone over your head, but please don't drag discussion down to that level. It's very simple:
            How has it gone over my head? On more than one occasion in this thread I've asked people not to insult others for the sake of insulting them. The joke I made is valid because your refusal to read the tribe novels means you won't know what they're even talking about. It's also relevant because you're arguing that your view is the correct one when by definition is an incomplete view.

            I'm terribly sorry that this detail has gone over your head, but it's a very simple and crucial fact.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            The black furies are criticised for being man-hating group, and if they stopped prioritising/excluding half the population, they'd possibly be a perfect tribe.
            And if you read the Tribebook you'd know that this is a stereotype they've fought for a long time to distance themselves from. They get female members constantly from other tribes believing these stereotypes, swaggering around the sept out to prove they're better than all the men, but that's not what being a Black Fury is about. Does that mean there is going to be some resistance in the tribe? Sure, but that's not your argument, your argument is that the entire Garou Nation (nay, the world!) will reject them, because it's the WoD and progressive things just don't happen.Werewolves don't discriminate based on sex except in fringe cases which are noteworthy only because of how rare they are. Werewolves will not judge your rank based on the color of your skin. They do care about Pure Breed, but this is an alien system that is not relatable to the racism you pointed out in America at this time. Werewolves are not conservative in the way you think they are. And they have much less cause to hate a group that many societies regarded as a natural part of life until Judeo-Christian religions got involved.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            Black furies are all too often the disagreeable and radical 'feminazi' stereotype you hear about.
            Except they're not, unless you think current feminists are all feminazis. If you read the Tribebook or the Tribenovel, you'd know that. Many of them are embittered toward men, because a lot of women suffer a lot of abuse at the hands of men, a lot of the times they end up protecting the helpless, a man is the aggressor, which lends itself to the same confirmation bias you might see in the police. Calling the police nazis because of confirmation bias is an extreme stretch. It's a bitterness I can relate to, because I suffered a lot of abuse from my father and brothers growing up, especially when I came out. That doesn't make me a nazi, and I don't 'hate all men' and want to kill them.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            Now, under the logic that all tribes can be sumrised by flaws; if the black furies started to accept trans characters, then they'd suddenly be lumped in with the PC-to-the-Extreme I-Hate-Cis-White-Males kind of crowd.
            Do you mean 'Summarized' or 'Surmised'? This is actually an important fucking distinction. You also misused that semi-colon. Look, I'm being a grammar and spelling nazi! Throwing nazi around lends credibility to our argument!

            That aside, what? I'll assume you meant summarized by their flaws, because that makes more grammatical sense than: "Surmised by their flaws."

            How the hell do you reach that conclusion? Who's going to assume that? The rest of the Garou Nation which knows nothing about them because their sacred lands are secret as are their ancient rituals? What bearing does that have on the discussion at all? Are the Black Furies going to not do something because the others might think poorly of them? That would be the least Black Fury thing ever, and their tribal totem would shun the hell out of them.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            You do not want to transform black furies into a pro transgender group(Thematically, I think logistics has already been discussed well enough) unless you want to mock transgender activist, because as soon as you make the gender-disphoric guy into a Black Fury and send him in to kill the guy who wants to keep differently sexed bathrooms and have him murder a Silver fang for not using the right gender pronouns, you've made black furies into a parody.
            Firstly I doubt you know the first thing about transgender activism, since you keep strawmaning them in this thread. Second, the Black Furies don't go around killing every person who upsets them. They solve the problem so that it goes away, they give the person they are helping the strength to fight back on their own. A Black Fury is not going to murder someone who has a view point but no influence on the system. She's not going to kill a politician with that kind of power until he proves that he is utterly irrevocably against human rights. A Black Fury might challenge someone to a duel over pronoun use (the actual Norse people did this all the time), but to argue that she will kill him is just drawing on your same strawman.

            You know who a Black Fury would kill? Some guy who rapes and then burns a transgender woman, before getting out of jail in three years off of manslaughter charges, because they just lost control of themselves once they learned that woman was trans. I invite you to look up Trans Panic as a legal defense. There are plenty of actual violent things the Black Furies could oppose that aren't petty murder over people with different ideas.

            Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
            The black furies are criticised for focusing almost exclusively on 50% of the population: That one guy who focuses on less than 5%, rather than issues that effect a wider population, is going to be seen as worse.
            51%, if you want to go so far as to use specific numbers.

            And it's not like someone can champion multiple causes at one time, right? I mean it's not like Black Furies already do that by championing Gaia, and the environment, and children, and women, and homosexuals -

            Wait. Oh my god.

            They absolutely do! And it doesn't negatively impact them!

            Comment


            • I really don't get people who think Werewolf, of all the lines, should be one where there is no hope and everything at all times must be shit and dark. The entire point of the game is fighting to make a better world in a way that you can't really ignore or sidestep like you can in say, Mage, and without the tone of 'try and make it better, but you probably won't and you'll definitely die painful and alone' like Hunter.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by loomer View Post
                I really don't get people who think Werewolf, of all the lines, should be one where there is no hope and everything at all times must be shit and dark. The entire point of the game is fighting to make a better world in a way that you can't really ignore or sidestep like you can in say, Mage, and without the tone of 'try and make it better, but you probably won't and you'll definitely die painful and alone' like Hunter.
                Werewolf is kind of the game that has as many intrepentations as there are players. Not to mention, when the person started reading in the edition cycle matters a lot. If you started with 1st ed, then that is how you see a lot of things in the game by.


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                • Even in first edition, a major component of the game was 'the world is shit. Try and make it less shit.' Like, that's the core struggle of the entire game, and has been since day one. The world is dying. Stand and fight and scream defiance into the dark to try and save it. Let me quote the 1st Ed core here.

                  "The Wyrm resides within them, just as it is found across Gaia; indeed, many of the Garou themselves have given up the struggle to join the enemy in treacherous alliance... The characters in Werewolf are expected to be heroes - they must care about what they have become and what they may soon be... They must defeat the monster within."

                  From the very first book, the game has been about standing up, screaming that defiance, and fighting for a better world. The elements of the Garou nation that don't were traitors from the get-go, fallen fools in service wittingly or otherwise to the Enemy. You aren't meant to sit and go 'well it's all fucked so why bother'. You're meant to struggle against it and try and make it less fucked, if only by a single act of kindness or a single enemy killed at a time. Any interpretation of the game that rejects this as the core struggle (into which the personal struggle of balancing garou obligation with personal want, and the personal struggle with the Rage wyrm-seed burning in the breast) is a misinterpretation.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by loomer View Post
                    Even in first edition, a major component of the game was 'the world is shit. Try and make it less shit.' Like, that's the core struggle of the entire game, and has been since day one. The world is dying. Stand and fight and scream defiance into the dark to try and save it. Let me quote the 1st Ed core here.

                    "The Wyrm resides within them, just as it is found across Gaia; indeed, many of the Garou themselves have given up the struggle to join the enemy in treacherous alliance... The characters in Werewolf are expected to be heroes - they must care about what they have become and what they may soon be... They must defeat the monster within."

                    From the very first book, the game has been about standing up, screaming that defiance, and fighting for a better world. The elements of the Garou nation that don't were traitors from the get-go, fallen fools in service wittingly or otherwise to the Enemy. You aren't meant to sit and go 'well it's all fucked so why bother'. You're meant to struggle against it and try and make it less fucked, if only by a single act of kindness or a single enemy killed at a time. Any interpretation of the game that rejects this as the core struggle (into which the personal struggle of balancing garou obligation with personal want, and the personal struggle with the Rage wyrm-seed burning in the breast) is a misinterpretation.
                    (empahsis mine)

                    Well, that is good to hear about the 1st ed.

                    Though, I think the issue we are discussing here isn't as much about the PCs as it is about the rest of the Nation and how they act. Let me look at what 1st, 2nd, Larp and GURPS say about the Furies and the issues brought up here, so we can get a clearer view on the canon involved.


                    Werewolf the Apocalypse 1st edition, p.110

                    The Black Furies are composed almost entirely of female garou, though there are a few male metis members of the tribe, resulting from from a Fury's illict mating with a Garou of another tribe. Other than these metis, they give away any male child to other tribes.

                    GURPS
                    -Same as the 1st. ed-

                    Apocalypse (as far as I know the earliest LARP book), p.44


                    The Black Furies exist as a counterpoint to somewhat male-dominated garou society.
                    --
                    They believe that their Goddess, Artemis (luna in another guise), wants them to remain apart from men. The only men in their tribe are those of the infertile metis breed.



                    Werewolf Players Guide, p.49

                    The Black Furies do not allow male homid or lupus to serve in their tribe. However, they no longer euthanize male children. They usually send any male Garou to the Children of Gaia.
                    --
                    Male metis are allowed to stay with the tribe, thoigh they can never advance far within the tribal structure and are usually relegated to a support position.



                    Werewolf the Apocalypse 2nd. ed, p.92

                    The Furies claim that Luna, in her aspect as Artemis the Huntress, created their tribe of she-wolves and appointed them to be protectors of the Wyld, defenders of women, and punishers of men. They uphold these duties with grim determination.

                    Other tribes look askance at the Furies, who give away or kill their male children. Many outside the tribe see the Furies as man-haters, but the truth is more complex. Although the tribe tolerates male metis, the Furies have a definite gender bias; they believe that women share a deeper bond with Gaia than any man can know, and see themselves as aspects of the Goddess incarnate. In her name, they Rage against any insult to women, nature or the Goddess.



                    Werewolf the Dark Ages, p.62- 64

                    Although some Furies prefer to gently influence their mortal wards, often spreading the gospel of the Virgin Mary, a growing number believe that the only way to keep the Patriarch's grasping talons away is bloodshed.
                    --
                    Determined to maintain the all-female tribal membership, the Furies have traditionally killed any male children
                    born to them (although male children born to Kin were
                    allowed to survive). Now an argument divides the Furies, as
                    some of their number denounce the practice as wasteful,
                    foolish and cruel. This growing minority allow their male
                    children to live, so that they may one day be able to pass on
                    the blood of the Furies to their daughters. The Furies intend
                    to carefully watch these male children and their descendants. Elders of both the Children of Gaia and the Silent

                    Striders have agreed to take in any of the male cubs who
                    show signs of undergoing the Change.
                    One of the few exceptions to this law is that of the
                    metis. From time to time, a Fury breaks the first tenet ofthe
                    Litany and births a male metis cub. Althought some elders
                    charge that a deformed body must house a deformed spirit,
                    the Furies as often as not decide that punishing a child for a
                    mother's sin is poor precedent. Once in while, line
                    blurs even further, and male cubs that ordinally have
                    been killed are allowed to survive. The reasoning varies from
                    situation to situation (and, after all, it happens very
                    rarely), but usually it's decided t ma e metis, raised at
                    the sept by necessity, has a tter c ance of growing up
                    receptive to the Mother. No Black Fury sept has ever lost a
                    metis to the Patriarch...
                    --
                    The Black Furies believe that breeding is a sacred duty
                    and gift, and carefully choose the fathers of their children.
                    Some among the more extreme Furies breed only with
                    wolves, thus avoiding contact with narrow-minded human
                    men. Others carefully maintain small dynasties of Kinfolk,
                    to improve the chance of their children being Garou.There
                    is a small minority of Black Furies who look for a truly loving
                    relationship, but most Furies feel that their role is as a

                    warrior, not a wife.

                    Dark Ages: Werewolf, p.56


                    The Black Furies are fierce defenders of the Wyld and vengeful protectors of women everywhere.
                    --
                    According to other legends, Gaia herself formed the Furies. They are all female so that each one might know the value of the lives she bears.
                    --
                    The Furies protect women wherever they are victimized. They take female cubs from other tribes, ones who have been mistreated by their brothers and fathers. They sometimes allow human women who have escaped desperate lives to live with Fury kinfolk. They have little respect, however, for women who refuse to take the freedom that is offered to them. While their totem, Pegasus, requires her followers to aid helpless women wherever they can be found, even pegasus has no desire to help those who will not help themselves.
                    The Most inviolate law of the Black Furies is that of the tribe's gender. Throught history, many Black Furies have ceremonially sacrificed male children in order to preserve the tribe as it is. A growing number of Furies, however, argue that this practise is wasteful and foolish.


                    Okay, so what I gather from all of these core snippets, is that pretty much only the 2nd ed really pushes the man-hating feminazi stereotype. The 1st ed actually focuses much more on the mysticism of the Furies than their gender bias and in fact does not even mention killing male cubs at all.

                    Generally, though, all texts are very clear on that the tribe is split over the matter and aren't all man hating.

                    If anyone wants me to, I can go through the first tribebook to see what opinions are found there.




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                    • A few pro trans writters have had their say in some of the later books.
                      It always sticks out like a sore thumb.

                      What the world of darkness emphasized in the 90's
                      Apathy
                      Hate
                      Sexism
                      Racism
                      domestic violence
                      Sex offences
                      Drug use
                      Organised crime
                      Wealth dichotomy
                      Islamophobia
                      nihlism
                      Consumerism
                      Pollution
                      Corporate greed
                      Corperate malpractice
                      Unsafe consumable products
                      Police Corruption and brutality
                      The machines taking over
                      The decline of faith, belief and spirituality
                      Faith being misused
                      Satanism
                      neocolonialism
                      Hostile Buyouts
                      Theft, or the practice of violently wrecking somone's shit and claiming it as your own, as seen in Diablorie, Nodes, Caerns

                      I think it's clear that they were trying to make a consistent statement here. Everything they focused on was bad. I'm sorry, I'm a university literature student, even trying to be objective says it's clear that this was deliberate. It makes you more aware of issues.

                      What the world of darkness has emphasized more recently
                      Apathy
                      Hate
                      domestic violence
                      Sex offences
                      Drug use
                      Organised crime
                      Wealth dichotomy
                      nihilism
                      Pro-Islam tolerance
                      strong Independent women
                      Transgenderism
                      Consumerism
                      Pollution
                      Corporate greed
                      Corperate malpractice
                      Unsafe consumable products
                      Police Corruption and brutality
                      The decline of faith, belief and spirituality
                      Faith being misused
                      neocolonialism
                      Hostile Buyouts
                      Theft, or the practice of violently wrecking somone's shit and claiming it as your own, as seen in Diablorie, Nodes, Caerns

                      Do you understand how fucking weird it is? Here you've got a shitlist, and one of the writers, willfully ignorant of the pattern (and often logistical problems), decides to put loved ones on the firing range with all the targets? It's confusing, because if you're entirely neutral, you'll end up thinking "Is there something terribly wrong with strong independent women?" Even if you're not been poisoned by literature or media studies, you'll still take it in unconsciously like that.

                      Comment


                      • First, I object to your description of being 'poisoned by literature or media studies'.

                        Second, you are confusing the subjects. It is not in debate that the World of Darkness has evolved. What is in debate is how Black Furies view transgender persons, and over the last few posts, the nature of the setting (specific to Werewolf) as not being purely about 'the world sucks, suck it up' but about 'the world sucks, fight back'. That being the goal, the presence of strong female characters, transgendered characters, and characters of diverse cultural, racial, and religious backgrounds in the setting does not set them up as a target on the firing line - it sets them up as precious icons of hope and strength in a complicated and often dark world. Do you think that including anything in the setting 'puts it on the firing range'?

                        Third, the World of Darkness setting still makes points about misogyny, sexism, racism and islamophobia. Part of how it does that now is by including contrasting viewpoints and characters who are strong women (and their allies), muslims, etc. You treat it as having been done away with - the reality is it still present, but now subject to a more nuanced position and critique than 'look at these things we say are bad, but are also inadvertantly including in our work'. The inclusion of transgendered characters ties in with this and by the general purpose of heightening awareness of and critiquing real issues.

                        Tell me, do you think the setting did not contain a message of tolerance for those of other racial and religious backgrounds in its earlier incarnations?

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                        • The black furies are supposed to represent radical nazi feminists just as they represent bastions of female empowerment. But the Black Furies do it a step further than other tribes. A female garou is equal to any other male in any other tribe, Black furies are Ironically, the most problematically sexist tribe. (yes, that includes the Get. They'll give you a hard time, but will ultimately respect you more for for going through it. Furies ban nearly half the pop) If we include Trans people into the Furies, then just as much as we're empowering trans people, we'll be putting them on a pedastool and then have it corrupted by those angry SJWs who hate on anyone who doesn't like safe spaces or use correct pronouns . Do you really want that? Because that's what you're asking for.
                          I am totally fine with that if you ignore my other problems, but the problem is here is that nobody's going to write this in as a consistent thing that keeps in context with the world of darkness, because the people who really want this are often those angry SJWs who aren't going to treat trans people and their strongest supporters as anything other than paragons. The world doesn't work like that and neither does the world of darkness.
                          Last edited by Flower,Innocent; 10-03-2016, 09:44 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Flower,Innocent View Post
                            The black furies are supposed to represent radical nazi feminists just as they represent bastions of female empowerment. But the Black Furies do it a step further than other tribes. A female garou is equal to any other male in any other tribe, Black furies are Ironically, the most problematically sexist tribe. (yes, that includes the Get. They'll give you a hard time, but will ultimately respect you more for for going through it. Furies ban nearly half the pop) If we include Trans people into the Furies, then just as much as we're empowering trans people, we'll be putting them on a pedastool and then have it corrupted by those angry SJWs who hate on anyone who doesn't like safe spaces or use correct pronouns . Do you really want that? Because that's what you're asking for.

                            I am totally fine with that if you ignore my other problems, but the problem is here is that nobody's going to write this in as a consistent thing that keeps in context with the world of darkness, because the people who really want this are often those angry SJWs who aren't going to treat trans people and their strongest supporters as anything other than paragons. The world doesn't work like that and neither does the world of darkness.
                            The 'radical nazi feminist' reading of the Black Furies is a possible one, and there is a faction within them that is emblematic of extreme seperatist feminists. That does not make them the be all and end all of the tribe, just as the presence of radical and seperatist feminists does not make feminism as a movement nothing but radical seperatists.

                            Including transwomen in the women tribe is not putting them on a pedestal. It is instead putting them on even footing with ciswomen. If I were to say that the leadership of the Furies or their greatest heroes should be made into transwomen, I would be putting them on a pedestal.

                            I want it. Does that make me an angry SJW? Do I strike you as not recognizing that transpeople can be just as deeply flawed as anyone else, because they are just the same as anyone else?

                            Further, why should we permit concern over 'angry SJWs who hate on anyone who doesn't like safe spaces or use correct pronouns' (a nebulous group and a pretty basic strawman at that) to prevent a logical exploration of transpeople's place in the Black Furies and a more inclusive atmosphere for transgender gamers?

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                            • Because that's the current patern of things. Read the DAV20 section on Ahrimanes. You have to read between the lines on what's wrong with them, because otherwise they're a too-perfect bunch of mary sues. Not everyone reads between the lines. It's not universal, there are examples of Trans people portrayed as people rather than idols (A certain Tzmisce comes to mind) but it happens all too often that a writer has an agenda to portray LGBT ludicrously positive while everyone else gets a realistic portrayal.
                              Last edited by Flower,Innocent; 10-03-2016, 10:12 AM.

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                              • I recall us debating about the Ahrimanes. You didn't convince me of the issue then, and I remain unconvinced. Can you point to more evidence of the claimed pattern?

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