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  • Fianna and the Fae

    The Fianna tribe book was one of the few Revised Books I couldn't procure, so I don't know how well it is addressed there, but how do you handle the Fae in your games? What does the tribebook have to say on it? Since Changeling didn't get a revised edition were they drifting away from using Changeling the Dreaming? The simplest answer is just saying they are Umbral dream spirits like Chimerlings, but that is too simplistic for my taste. Did Dark Ages Werewolf talk much about the Fianna? I remember Dark Age Fae bragging about the Garou recollection involving one faction of the Fae tricking the Garou against the other, while in Garou history they seem to confuse whether the Fomorian war was the Garou driving back Fomori or Nightmare Fae like Balorians.

    Frankly I do like having NPCs crossover, and even had plans to use things like a Garou Rip Van Winkles serving a Century unaging in a Freehold in exchange for the Freehold saving the Sept from certain doom. With the contract expiring and the NPC meeting the pack as a hundred plus year old Rank 1 Garou. Obviously building up experience and traits but not really gifts.

    And theen there was the old Kinfolk and Kinain thing I always wanted to experiment with after reading Enchanted. Basically Kinain have some minor Fae perks, and it s the ultimate crossovery goodness as it can overlap with shifter status.

    Then we have things like the Ceilican and the Fae's connection, which seemed very downplayed in the W20, after all weren't they blaming their near extinction originally on being betrayed by the fae?

    The biggest issue in my opinion is Banality and the mists, which for the sake of crossovers I do a simplified systems light take. Changeling seems very crossover unfriendly with Banality and Mists. And the weird point of the game where changeling is designed with the idea of only Fae sources of magic most changeling have to deal with, and things get confusing if changelings become human and have no real explanation why they have Olympic class training, or things like that.


    But for gifts like Summon Faery Kin/Eshu/Unseelie I think its rather fun to actually have Changelings/Fae show up rather then simplify it as an Umbral spirit, but I still allow it to effect dream spirits.

    I heard some people like using Dark Age Fae as the system for Modern Fae, how well has that been going? I need to read all of my copy of Dark Age Fae.

    For me I've found the most crossovery stuff involving the Arcadian Gateway. When my players go there I have the beings they encounter modelled after Kithain/Gallain/Thallain with the Kith bonuses that changelings get for being in the Dreaming to represent which side is winning the Seelie Unseelie struggle. Just wondering, did the pre-revised Arcadian Gateway have King Lysander or was he missing even then? I've had some fun using the Arcadian Gateway in game though, I've used it in a Hengeyokai game and even a Scion Game!

    The Fae/Shifter connections are downplayed outside the Fianna. But I like how they potentially tie into the Fenrir myths as the Alfar/Svartalfar/Vanir/Dvarger/Jotunn.

    How do you think Mokole Mnesis interacts with the effects of the Mists?

    And it seems to me since changelings have greater numbers then the Garou, and they even have ancestral ties/alliances if you discover the local Freeholds Changelings would be the biggest potential ally for the Apocalypse, as well general doomsday stuff going on in the final days. In fact I planned on using them potentially just for this purpose if I ever got to run the Apocalypse, or even if I got to run a game long enough where the group was desperate enough to reach for outside assistance to save a Caern. Being Enchanted in a Freehold would actually be a really cool way to say bring a Pack you make in say Werewolf the Wild West, and bring them to Modern Times, or if you want less of a time jump really just use it in any game have the Garou spend a few decades enchanted. After all the Arcadian Gateway already has the time dilation effect.


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    I treat changelings as a type of Gorgon that has been fairly rare. Some Fianna still interact with them, GoF still want to rip out their throats, and the Ceilican try to avoid them at all costs lest they be enslaved again. There are still some things I need to work out regarding Mists, wasn't a big changeling player and my players never had that much interaction with them where it became an issue.

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    • #3
      There is a PoD of Fianna revised. Not sure, how much Changeling Info there is...

      One could see Changelings as Gorgons, but why not keep them as a distinct forth (or fifth) kind of possesed human?
      Their inherent abilities and such aren't easily reflected with the Possesed book, imho.

      I guess all Shifters had contact with the Fae over the millenia. The get of fenris hold a crudge because some of them were enslaved for a millennia or two, suckers. However, that allies to Sidhe. Trolls are very honourable and should not be enemies to Gets, one would argue, but Trolls weren't conceived yet, when the 1st Get TB named them enemies (what would apply better to Ogres). Dwarfen then again are named as friendly towards Get - which could be Nockers forbearer.


      Going by the Changeling rules, there are some strange aspects. Changeling regard garou as distant cousins, which is okay. They also think of them as short tempered, and therefore dangerous. So, most wouldn't want to spend too much time with them. The authors of Changeling made an effort to adjust banality according to Tradition for mages, but not according to tribe or auspice for garou, which is sad. One would assume that a theurge is just as banal or not as a Dreamspeaker.
      Enchantment on Garou lasts longer, but the Mists will kick in anyway. I would rule, that the same is true for all Fera - and that Mnesis is also affected. Even gifts like "Total Recall" might not be enough to bypass the Mists. Then again, all memory comes back, once one gets enchanted again, right?
      Also, garou can't get Dreamstruck, which I'd also extend to all Fera.

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      • #4
        As an aside, Dark Ages: Fae touches upon this in a much more meaningful way than C:tD, regarding the War of Iron and Silver. Honestly, even what was up with the Get (who no doubt were just as clueless as the Fianna when it came to fae specfics) makes more sense than trying to retrofit it with C:tD. The conflicts with "Balorians" makes a whole lot more sense among other things, and given it's way, WAY back when trying to square peg Dreaming into that historical round hole doesn't work well; it's built on too many false and often awkward assumptions (Why the hell would entire Kith's of C:tD give a damn about a werewolf Tribe? The answer is: they wouldn't without some potent Oaths sworn way back when.)

        This all happened Pre-Sundering after all; the Fae barely resembled what they do in C:tD in the modern era even going by C:tD. A lot of the prior Fae + Fianna connections were built on things that really had little place once C:tD and Da: Fae actually came around regardless (making a kind of sloppy retrofit attempts at time if you take it as the full scoop).

        Seriously, if you can, pick up a copy of Dark Ages: Fae and look at that war and other references. It just makes sense. Even the troll issue if you look at what trolls are in the context of that game, or what might gotten labelled (falsely) as such. Otherwise it's broad, broad brush strokes that kinda leave you head scratching as to why the Werewolves and Fae are more relevant within some Tribal conflicts and encounters without an good answer. At least one that's not overly simplistic and horribly contrived. Suffice to say the Fae have a much better POV on what happened on their side (since, well you can read it instead of relying on old tales of Garou who aren't really savvy on their cultures), and it's not some happy shiny alliances with the Garou or the Fianna dilineated by tacked-on Kith goofery.
        Last edited by Tatterdemalion King; 03-27-2014, 10:12 AM.


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        • #5
          I was never a fan of All Get hate Changelings because one small group a long time ago had a bad experience with them, that was dropped with revised and I embrace that. After all why would some Get Caern in Russia not trust some Domovoi who do nothing but aid locals just because say 500 years ago some Swedish Get say get killed by some Satyrs. Get have had varied experiences with the Fae and I interpret it through their mythic lens and regional history.

          Banality scores were just broad suggestions, I determined it based on winging it per individual. It seems to me for instance Lupus would have lower banality on average due to lack of a human history, and associated drudgery.

          But I was usually generous with magic counteracting the mists, after all simply keeping a general is a good bulwark for it so why not perfect memory or memory recall gifts. Though it could be like a virus to Mnesis. And generally downplayed the Mists effects against Supernaturals, especially Shifters and Tradition Mages. The Shifters often had ancient pacts with the various Fae and I have this be a metaphysical corrosion to their personal mists, particularly the Fianna who keep a thorough history of their interactions with them. The books don't seem so generous with the mist crunch but I am. I feel those that believe in the Faeries and have actual ancient oaths with them like Fianna and Shaman/Druids then that cuts a great deal through the mists which I have more resonant with those inherently disbelieving in Faeries.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tatterdemalion King View Post
            As an aside, Dark Ages: Fae touches upon this in a much more meaningful way than C:tD, regarding the War of Iron and Silver. Honestly, even what was up with the Get (who no doubt were just as clueless as the Fianna when it came to fae specfics) makes more sense than trying to retrofit it with C:tD. The conflicts with "Balorians" makes a whole lot more sense among other things, and given it's way, WAY back when trying to square peg Dreaming into that historical round hole doesn't work well; it's built on too many false and often awkward assumptions (Why the hell would entire Kith's of C:tD give a damn about a werewolf Tribe? The answer is: they wouldn't without some potent Oaths sworn way back when.)

            This all happened Pre-Sundering after all; the Fae barely resembled what they do in C:tD in the modern era even going by C:tD. A lot of the prior Fae + Fianna connections were built on things that really had little place once C:tD and Da: Fae actually came around regardless (making a kind of sloppy retrofit attempts at time if you take it as the full scoop).

            Seriously, if you can, pick up a copy of Dark Ages: Fae and look at that war and other references. It just makes sense. Even the troll issue if you look at what trolls are in the context of that game, or what might gotten labelled (falsely) as such. Otherwise it's broad, broad brush strokes that kinda leave you head scratching as to why the Werewolves and Fae are more relevant within some Tribal conflicts and encounters without an good answer. At least one that's not overly simplistic and horribly contrived. Suffice to say the Fae have a much better POV on what happened on their side (since, well you can read it instead of relying on old tales of Garou who aren't really savvy on their cultures), and it's not some happy shiny alliances with the Garou or the Fianna dilineated by tacked-on Kith goofery.
            Aye from the Fianna's point of view the Fae were written before they were their own gameline so they kept then ambiguously defined, and they kept this because Changeling didn't make it into Revised. The upside is it allows you to fit in whatever you want into the Fae slot.

            I liked what I did skim from Dark Age Fae, and to me it was broad and general enough where I could easily see how these beings could evolve into not just the Kithain but the Nunnehi or even the Hsien, which are completely separate supernatural type then Changelings. But yeah I would have the Changeling's account of history be likely quite inaccurate . Like events probably happened but their interpretation is different. Such as them believing too strongly in Kiths being a thing, rather then materialized trends from much more diverse Fae. Though I guess the Inanimae had the biggest connections between Changeling and Dark Age Fae.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              There is a PoD of Fianna revised. Not sure, how much Changeling Info there is...

              One could see Changelings as Gorgons, but why not keep them as a distinct forth (or fifth) kind of possesed human?
              Their inherent abilities and such aren't easily reflected with the Possesed book, imho
              The only reason I don't like them as their own breed of possessed is that each possessed has a celestial patron. Drones=Weaver, Gorgons=Wyld, Fomori=Wyrm, Kami=Gaia. Even Hunters have their messangers (which I normally just play off as celestial beings). Following Changeling themes in their game line they just fit best under the Wyld.

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              • #8
                But couldn't they be their own breed yet still be connected to the Wyld? The Generative nature of Dreaming/Creativity and its connection to the Wyld being obvious. I mean you don't have to call all unions of Wyld and Flesh Gorgons.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  But couldn't they be their own breed yet still be connected to the Wyld? The Generative nature of Dreaming/Creativity and its connection to the Wyld being obvious. I mean you don't have to call all unions of Wyld and Flesh Gorgons.
                  I think that its just a debate of semantics at that point. I would say that they are a type of Gorgon and they have breeds that are representations of the different kinds of dreams/creative drive that exist which are collectively known by other denizens as Changelings. My understanding of Inanime are that they are portrayed in the same way that typical none sentient gorgons already are.

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                  • #10
                    Well I guess it was always a semantical debate, as it was a debate on titles. The only issue with with rules as written is they specifically say you can't have a human Gorgon, hence why I asked why not just be something else.

                    Inanimae are sentient so how are they portrayed like Non-sentient Gorgons?


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Well I guess it was always a semantical debate, as it was a debate on titles. The only issue with with rules as written is they specifically say you can't have a human Gorgon, hence why I asked why not just be something else.

                      Inanimae are sentient so how are they portrayed like Non-sentient Gorgons?
                      The breeds of Gorgon expressed in the Possessed book most definitely could not be human, but as they do not really talk about spirits of dreams amongst those noted, by including them with the spirits presented then Changelings fit. I don't particularly have a strong attachment to them not being their own class, but the things they do in the material realm ultimately benefit the Wyld more then any other celestial. Would you have them be self serving in contrast? or is their another celestial being established that would benefit from them?

                      I must have misunderstood the Inanimae, I thought they were the changeling version of a golem protecting a plot of land instead of a person, my mistake. If they are sentient then I will need to do some more research on them lol.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        I was never a fan of All Get hate Changelings because one small group a long time ago had a bad experience with them, that was dropped with revised and I embrace that. After all why would some Get Caern in Russia not trust some Domovoi who do nothing but aid locals just because say 500 years ago some Swedish Get say get killed by some Satyrs.
                        It never said they hate all changelings. Plus this was something that was only written about in the Changeling: the Dreaming books and didn't show up in a W:tA book. So it was never dropped in C:tD 2nd edition. So it has to be seen if it gets dropped from C20 or not first.

                        It outright states that the Get have no problem with Trolls or the Nunnehi (Since they had nothing to do with it), they just don't like the Sidhe for what they did. Since they have no issue with the Nunnehi, I think this extends to other fae outside of the old native lands of the Get.

                        Plus since this was something that happened ages and ages ago to the Get, do you think all of the Get are going to remember that slight forever? There's a good chance that it's been forgotten about in the modern age unless someone gets a Pastlife that personally dealt with that.
                        Which would probably lead to some confused Sidhe when they do encounter a Get that doesn't outright attack.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Derzhuzad View Post
                          The only reason I don't like them as their own breed of possessed is that each possessed has a celestial patron. Drones=Weaver, Gorgons=Wyld, Fomori=Wyrm, Kami=Gaia. Even Hunters have their messangers (which I normally just play off as celestial beings). Following Changeling themes in their game line they just fit best under the Wyld.
                          One could argue that the power of imagination is a bend of weaver and wyld to some degree.
                          If you regard mages as possesed by their avatars (who can be reborn to other mages iirc), then they, too wouldn't fit into the three categories.
                          Besides, Changeling has iirc the term Wyrd for their kind of "going vulgar". And CB Ravnos mentioned the Werg, iirc, as a power in connection to changelings and the Chimistry illusions.

                          Sure, that's old 1st Edtion stuff. But, I see Gaia, Wyrm, Weaver and Wyld as Middle Umbra entities. There are other beings, like that Darkness from the legend of Wolf, and those stuff Nephandi worship, obviously fallen angels beyond the Abyss etc.

                          So, for the part of the umbra that is tied not to the soul/essence of stuff (werewolf/middle umbra), but to the imagination, thoughts (mind umbra/Dreaming/Astral realm) there might also be superior beings. Like Wyrm, Wyld, Weaver they don't interact with the world directly, since they are trapped in Arcadia (which is "beyond creation" in its own right), but their subjects (the Commoners) stayed behind and their fae souls now go the changeling (or inanimae) way. So, yes, they are kindof possessed, but the kind of spirit they are possessed with is not middle umbra like and therefore not subject to wyrm, wyld, weaver classification.


                          @Get and Fae
                          The "All Get hate Fae" is a generalisation that originated with the Changeling Storyteller's Companion, iirc. It didn't detail the Garou in that depth. But it is a newer source than 1st Edition TB Get, which predates CtD.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                            One could argue that the power of imagination is a bend of weaver and wyld to some degree.
                            I like that, can fit the Changelings/Mage there, and then the Many undead creatures between the Weaver and the Wyrm. Spirits created from the clash.

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                            • #15
                              *Unleashing Art of Spring*

                              Be Reborn!

                              This is another thing I would like to see discussed again in new books. Like the Early Days of the Fianna and Fae alliance and how it varied throughout the ages. I was kind of disappointed how Dark Age Fae glosses over it and treats it like a "lols silly wolves, we using you lols"


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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