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  • Suicide shadows during catharsis...

    I have an interesting question from one of my players playing a shadow.

    What does stop a shadow during catharsis from just commiting suicide? Looking for a tall building, jumping from the last floor until the wraith's corpus gets to 0 and then let him fall into a Harrowing, effectively weakening his psique?

    It seems like a dirty way to play the Shadow, but I wanted to hear opinions regarding... why this is not the right approach to play a Shadow.

  • #2
    Because it isn't interesting and will probably not lead to player enjoyment.


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    • #3
      If the wraith dies while the shadow is in the drivers seat it may harrow the shadow instead.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Flinty View Post
        If the wraith dies while the shadow is in the drivers seat it may harrow the shadow instead.
        That, I considered myself. However, is it official? Is there any reference to what happens if the wraith goes to a harrowing while the shadow is in control?

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        • #5
          My books are in temporary storage, so these are mostly my takes that may (or may not) jive with WtO Second.

          Originally posted by Daraexus View Post
          What does stop a shadow during catharsis from just commiting suicide? Looking for a tall building, jumping from the last floor until the wraith's corpus gets to 0 and then let him fall into a Harrowing, effectively weakening his psique?

          It seems like a dirty way to play the Shadow, but I wanted to hear opinions regarding... why this is not the right approach to play a Shadow.
          There are Shadows like that. They are generally so self-destructive that the wraiths to whom they belong have fallen to Oblivion a long time ago. I.E., not the players. But the players aren’t special snowflakes who possess happy Shadows. Shadows want Oblivion. To get there they have to destroy/humiliate/enlighten their weaker halves; the Psyche. It’s also important to remember the Shadow and Psyche are still the same critter and same “person”. They’re just sort of split up.

          I don’t remember if it’s a rule or a best practice, but when a character enters catharsis and the Shadow takes control, the Shadowguide does not control the catharsis. The player does. It’s her character so let her enjoy playing the other half of it. The Shadowguide can try her hand at playing the Psyche or just take a break. Unless the player is either A) a nihilistic bastard or B) really doesn’t want to be at the table, most folks aren’t going to send their characters into a Destructive Harrowing for giggles.


          Originally posted by Daraexus View Post

          That, I considered myself. However, is it official? Is there any reference to what happens if the wraith goes to a harrowing while the shadow is in control?
          If the Shadow is in control and destroys the wraith’s plasmic body, the [wraith] character enters a Destructive Harrowing, just as if it had lost all Corpus levels while in control. Spectres don’t have Harrowings. Instead they get the sweet sweet release that only beloved Oblivion can offer.


          This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
          (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
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          • #6
            Any Spectre could go to the Well of the Void and hurl themselves into Oblivion, and many do. Yet the Labyrinth is still full of Spectres. The simple truth is that while every Spectre and Shadow wants Oblivion, many don't want it just yet. For some there are other things they want to do first. Others want Oblivion for everyone, not just themselves. Still others crave it but can't bring themselves to make the leap... they want someone else to provide the final push.

            In fact, most of the Shadows or Spectres you are likely to see in Wraith are like that, for the simple reason that the rest don't stick around long.


            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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            • #7
              And the Psyche isn't necessarily gone, nor, under the correct circumstances, would it even be quiescent. After all, Specters have to deal with the whispers of their Psyche's the same way wraiths do with their Shadows.

              So, the Shadow does that. It's going to cause a Harrowing, but I wouldn't be looking at the rules for Specter' being Harrowed, not normal wraiths....

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              • #8
                This gets discussed in the Wr20 preview for Shadowguiding. According to that, Shadows prefer to take the slow route to Oblivion because a) they can help cause as much collateral damage as possible and b) they generally lack the active impulse to self-destruction - they want to see the Psyche go down, sure, but they can afford to take their time about it. They'll get there in the end.


                Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by marin View Post
                  This gets discussed in the Wr20 preview for Shadowguiding. According to that, Shadows prefer to take the slow route to Oblivion because a) they can help cause as much collateral damage as possible and b) they generally lack the active impulse to self-destruction - they want to see the Psyche go down, sure, but they can afford to take their time about it. They'll get there in the end.
                  I do have problems with saying that all Shadows are patient; that seems like an unwarranted generalization. You can have a lot of fun with a tantrum happy Shadow. However, it isn't unreasonable to think that if a Wraith had self destructive impulses strong enough to just dive into Oblivion he would already be a Spectre.


                  Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                    I do have problems with saying that all Shadows are patient; that seems like an unwarranted generalization. You can have a lot of fun with a tantrum happy Shadow. However, it isn't unreasonable to think that if a Wraith had self destructive impulses strong enough to just dive into Oblivion he would already be a Spectre.
                    Patience is probably the wrong implication. This quote from the Wr20 Shadowguiding excerpt might help put it better:

                    Certain Shadow archetypes, such as The Monster, have little use for subtlety and will charge ahead, throwing metaphorical bombs with both hands. But even the crudest, most vicious Shadow looks for weak points rather than simply mindlessly raging. At the same time, not every Shadow needs to be a Professor Moriarty, planning six moves ahead to harvest a single point of Angst a month down the line. The Shadow knows it has limited resources but all the time in the world, and so it can afford to pick its spots for greatest effect.


                    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nazfool View Post
                      My books are in temporary storage, so these are mostly my takes that may (or may not) jive with WtO Second.



                      There are Shadows like that. They are generally so self-destructive that the wraiths to whom they belong have fallen to Oblivion a long time ago. I.E., not the players. But the players aren’t special snowflakes who possess happy Shadows. Shadows want Oblivion. To get there they have to destroy/humiliate/enlighten their weaker halves; the Psyche. It’s also important to remember the Shadow and Psyche are still the same critter and same “person”. They’re just sort of split up.

                      I don’t remember if it’s a rule or a best practice, but when a character enters catharsis and the Shadow takes control, the Shadowguide does not control the catharsis. The player does. It’s her character so let her enjoy playing the other half of it. The Shadowguide can try her hand at playing the Psyche or just take a break. Unless the player is either A) a nihilistic bastard or B) really doesn’t want to be at the table, most folks aren’t going to send their characters into a Destructive Harrowing for giggles.




                      If the Shadow is in control and destroys the wraith’s plasmic body, the [wraith] character enters a Destructive Harrowing, just as if it had lost all Corpus levels while in control. Spectres don’t have Harrowings. Instead they get the sweet sweet release that only beloved Oblivion can offer.


                      Its a rule, on the player not shadow guide playing the wraith in catarasis.

                      its one that in light of this thread makes a LOT of sense.

                      it also gives recommendations for how a ST can deal with a Shadowguide, whos a bit TOO enthusiastic.

                      giving a bonus to the catharasis rolls.

                      on the idea, of the Shadow going through a harrowing, I think it could indeed happen.

                      And anyone whos played through batman arkham knight... thats VERY MUCH a harrowing, when you play the joker, through the landscape of his and batmans psyches... and in the end is trapped in a cell never to escape.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                        on the idea, of the Shadow going through a harrowing, I think it could indeed happen.
                        I might be misremembering something, but I’m fairly certain Shadow Harrowings are a not a thing. There’s nothing wrong with making it a thing, but as of WtO Second it’s not. I think. Like I said earlier in this thread, my books are MIA.


                        This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                        (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                        ").

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                        • #13
                          Don't forget that Shadows have (Dark) Passions too and they want to fulfil them. How can you fulfil 'Destroy all I love (Spite)' if you just hurl yourself into Oblivion? Presumably only Shadows with the Dark Passion 'Jump into the Mouth of the Void (Nihilism)' and nothing else want to obliterate themselves.

                          In the long run, this all serves Oblivion better. Spreading the Angst is more useful for Oblivion than just snuffing itself out. It's going to eat the world eventually anyway. Better to indulge its inexhaustible hate for the universe while it still can.

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                          • #14
                            Hate? Nah, Oblivion just wants to give the world a big hug.

                            Edit: For the record, I'm of the opinion that Oblivion is utterly passive and has no wants or desires at all. Angst and Spectres are drawn to it like moths are drawn to a flame, but it doesn't want to spread suffering any more than fire wants to make more insects.
                            Last edited by Ramnesis; 01-03-2017, 12:44 PM.


                            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                              Hate? Nah, Oblivion just wants to give the world a big hug.

                              Edit: For the record, I'm of the opinion that Oblivion is utterly passive and has no wants or desires at all. Angst and Spectres are drawn to it like moths are drawn to a flame, but it doesn't want to spread suffering any more than fire wants to make more insects.
                              It depends which part of Oblivion you're referring to. The Grand Maw is impersonal and passive. Grandmother, the semi-canon thing that sees itself as the embodiment of Oblivion, or the Grand Maw, is neither. And the Neverborn are full of hate and destruction and either spawned directly from the Well of the Void or are similarly manifestations of Oblivion directly.
                              Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 01-05-2017, 09:56 AM.

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