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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    To be honest, I think facets of both perspectives can come to the fore in any game, depending on your own playstyles. The Shadow is definitely connected to the Id, but perhaps the Id as empowered by Oblivion. The Eidolon, meanwhile, is possibly the same thing as the Avatar. My guess, then, is that it wants to guide the memories of a dead soul to Oblivion so that the Avatar can be reincarnated free of the ties that are binding it to the Underworld. The psyche is most certainly just one part of the human soul, and the part which comprises memory and passions, rather than the higher, divine part of the soul, which moves from incarnation to incarnation.

    I think the Well of the Void just is, but the forces it exerts are certainly corrupt. Whether it's because of Voormas or, more probably, an imbalance at the point of Creation itself, it doesn't work the way it's supposed to and that's a running theme across the World of Darkness lines.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    Sure it's coming from Oblivion. Just like the hivemind is an erosion of individuality, the anger and hate of Specters is characteristic way that Oblivion erodes away positive emotions. Effectively, specters are "Dark Creatures of the Id" with all the superego and ego getting sliced, worn, abraded, rotted away. Are they non-angry specters? Probably, but that's not what the various castes seem to show.

    I'd say the "slip away quietly" Specters are just as Angst-y, just not in your face about it. And, since said slipping isn't really a given and there's a Psyche pulling back on that, they are getting thwarted. Quietly suicidal wraiths can get pretty angry in such cases, showing that road leads, once again to hate/fear/the Dark Side. It's not an easy road to be completely "yin" in one's nihilistic impulses. Self-negation typically takes some motivated action to bring about.
    I'm of the opinion that most Shadow Eaten do go straight to Oblivion. Only around 1 in 20 people show up as wraiths, and while many of the other 19 immediately Transcend, it's extremely optimistic to assume all of them do. I also seem to recall that there are references to Shadows that plummet into Oblivion the moment they become Spectres too, but I'd have to check my books. And indeed, they would still be Angst ridden, but it's not just Angst but the Dark Passions that determine what a Spectre wants to do.

    I do think you are right that a Spectre who is consistently thwarted from ending himself would develop some kind of outwardly destructive Dark Passion, even if he didn't have one in the first place. But if he does, wouldn't that be on him and not Oblivion?

    That's really my view on this. If a bunch of deranged pyromaniacs started worshiping fire, getting off on their own burns and brainwashing people around to their viewpoint, we wouldn't say fire was the one corrupting. If a bunch of ants caught themselves on the edge of a drain and started trying to pull other people down into the darkness, we wouldn't say the drain was trying to do anything at all. Oblivion is like that, it's arguably just the complete absence of anything. All of the pain and nastiness, that just comes from the things that exist as they are worn away (or are just trying to be); an accretion disk of everything screaming as it loses its grip.

    I don't think we differ on that at all. I've run 2, 3, maybe 4 Wraith game and played a bit here and there as well. I've never run or been in a game that was about "OBLIVION". It was about the characters dealing with being dead, how to manage their continued existence, how to deal with their divided soul, how to interact with the world already built around them by previous wraiths. The Tempest, their Spectral foes, Harrowings and their Shadows were the "fingers of Oblivion" in the game, but Stygia, like the Czar, was far away, and even it didn't matter so much. No Labyrinth spelunkers. No dedicated Specter killers marching off to the depths of Hell. Just... dead folks trying to get by in a fairly crappy, insane world. (Imagine living in a world where just "eating" could be used by the powers that be as a death penalty offense if they were feeling particularly snarky...)
    That's a good way of putting it.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

    Yes, but is that corruption coming from Oblivion? Or is it that the level of pain and despair Angst represents is the only thing actually attracted to Oblivion?

    And in fact, we do see "Go quietly into that good night" Spectres. Or rather we don't, but only because they plummet straight into the Maw of the Void. It's not that the Shadow Eaten universally want to spread misery and drag others into Oblivion, it's that only the ones that do have the drive to stick around. A particularly awful form of confirmation bias.



    Maybe this is one of the areas we differ in, but I see Wraith as being far more about personal horror than any kind of great struggle against evil. Don't get me wrong, Oblivion is horrifying and the Labyrinth is a better realized nightmare than any Caul or Black Spiral I can imagine, but they don't have to be any kind of imminent existential threat to the world to serve their purpose. The true horror of Oblivion is that no matter how unimaginably terrifying a prospect it is: part of your character wants it. There's no need for tainted chemicals, or spiritual possession, or even special dark rituals to corrupt you because you are already infected. Linger on in the Underworld long enough and you will eventually dive into that Void, and if you are really lucky, you won't become a monster on the way down.



    No, I'm saying Transcendence is moving on. To the next life or the next stage of existence or whatever else comes after. My view (and it is explicitly head canon) is that most of the person's soul is already pulling towards Transcendence, but a few scraps are gripping the world too tightly. Those scraps are what we call Wraiths and Shadows. The soul is going to transcend, it's just waiting to see if the scraps will come with it or if they will be eaten away.


    Sure it's coming from Oblivion. Just like the hivemind is an erosion of individuality, the anger and hate of Specters is characteristic way that Oblivion erodes away positive emotions. Effectively, specters are "Dark Creatures of the Id" with all the superego and ego getting sliced, worn, abraded, rotted away. Are they non-angry specters? Probably, but that's not what the various castes seem to show.

    I'd say the "slip away quietly" Specters are just as Angst-y, just not in your face about it. And, since said slipping isn't really a given and there's a Psyche pulling back on that, they are getting thwarted. Quietly suicidal wraiths can get pretty angry in such cases, showing that road leads, once again to hate/fear/the Dark Side. It's not an easy road to be completely "yin" in one's nihilistic impulses. Self-negation typically takes some motivated action to bring about.

    I don't think we differ on that at all. I've run 2, 3, maybe 4 Wraith game and played a bit here and there as well. I've never run or been in a game that was about "OBLIVION". It was about the characters dealing with being dead, how to manage their continued existence, how to deal with their divided soul, how to interact with the world already built around them by previous wraiths. The Tempest, their Spectral foes, Harrowings and their Shadows were the "fingers of Oblivion" in the game, but Stygia, like the Czar, was far away, and even it didn't matter so much. No Labyrinth spelunkers. No dedicated Specter killers marching off to the depths of Hell. Just... dead folks trying to get by in a fairly crappy, insane world. (Imagine living in a world where just "eating" could be used by the powers that be as a death penalty offense if they were feeling particularly snarky...)

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post
    That's a point of view, sure. But it's just as easy, and borne out directly in the game source material, that the corruption is not incidental to the atrophy. The corruption is an aspect of the atrophy, and, in fact an integral part of it. That's a part of succumbing to Oblivion. Anger, hate, the Dark Side, loosing individual identity, they aren't a groupthink coping mechanism, they're evidence that the fight is being lost. Otherwise, other methodologies would inevitably arise and we would see the "cuddly teddy bear going beddy-bye and slipping away to soothing lullaby" Specters. We don't. We see one flavor. That's because that's the only flavor there is. Dust and the slippery mass of decaying matter just don't taste good. Neither
    Yes, but is that corruption coming from Oblivion? Or is it that the level of pain and despair Angst represents is the only thing actually attracted to Oblivion?

    And in fact, we do see "Go quietly into that good night" Spectres. Or rather we don't, but only because they plummet straight into the Maw of the Void. It's not that the Shadow Eaten universally want to spread misery and drag others into Oblivion, it's that only the ones that do have the drive to stick around. A particularly awful form of confirmation bias.

    The difference in the aims and methodology of the Wyrm, Oblivion and Nephandi (when taken as a whole) are negligible. All are the ultimate "big bads" of their game lines and they are all, essentially the same thing skinned appropriately. It's not about what the game is about, it's about what the game is against . The different stats are fighting their face of EVIL appropriate to the basic themes of the game in question. It's where those games pivot away from Vampire which is almost entirely about personal horror or collectivized horror to having an actual externalized struggle with a coherent structure of badness. (Not that there isn't a lot of personal horror in Wraith, a smidge in Werewolf and the possibility of it in Mage, it's just not what they are structured to be about.) (I guess the Baali and the Black Hand are sorta kinds attempts to poke at a similar idea. But they really don't cut it as they aren't fundamental to the underlying structure of Vampire, they're just a bunch of bad vampires acting particularly naughty.)
    Maybe this is one of the areas we differ in, but I see Wraith as being far more about personal horror than any kind of great struggle against evil. Don't get me wrong, Oblivion is horrifying and the Labyrinth is a better realized nightmare than any Caul or Black Spiral I can imagine, but they don't have to be any kind of imminent existential threat to the world to serve their purpose. The true horror of Oblivion is that no matter how unimaginably terrifying a prospect it is: part of your character wants it. There's no need for tainted chemicals, or spiritual possession, or even special dark rituals to corrupt you because you are already infected. Linger on in the Underworld long enough and you will eventually dive into that Void, and if you are really lucky, you won't become a monster on the way down.

    Which isn't seeing it the other way at all. You're saying Transcendence is non-existence. So is Oblivion. If they end result is the same, the equivalence stands. That's another opinion. The answer we're given is that that is ONE possibility, but the only "truth" about Transcendence is that what it is is unknown. The idea that Transcendence just leads to Oblivion by a gentler path seems just as likely to be propaganda by those who have reasons to avoid it. Which is, in fact the Stygian party line. But, in your interpretation Eidolons are not really anything different than Shadows whispering at you from a different corner. Shadows are counseling you go out by graphic self-mutilation/take as many down with you as you- style suicide and Eidolons suggesting you just take the bottle of happy Transcendence pills and slip away.
    No, I'm saying Transcendence is moving on. To the next life or the next stage of existence or whatever else comes after. My view (and it is explicitly head canon) is that most of the person's soul is already pulling towards Transcendence, but a few scraps are gripping the world too tightly. Those scraps are what we call Wraiths and Shadows. The soul is going to transcend, it's just waiting to see if the scraps will come with it or if they will be eaten away.



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  • Ajax
    replied
    That's a point of view, sure. But it's just as easy, and borne out directly in the game source material, that the corruption is not incidental to the atrophy. The corruption is an aspect of the atrophy, and, in fact an integral part of it. That's a part of succumbing to Oblivion. Anger, hate, the Dark Side, loosing individual identity, they aren't a groupthink coping mechanism, they're evidence that the fight is being lost. Otherwise, other methodologies would inevitably arise and we would see the "cuddly teddy bear going beddy-bye and slipping away to soothing lullaby" Specters. We don't. We see one flavor. That's because that's the only flavor there is. Dust and the slippery mass of decaying matter just don't taste good. Neither

    The difference in the aims and methodology of the Wyrm, Oblivion and Nephandi (when taken as a whole) are negligible. All are the ultimate "big bads" of their game lines and they are all, essentially the same thing skinned appropriately. It's not about what the game is about, it's about what the game is against . The different stats are fighting their face of EVIL appropriate to the basic themes of the game in question. It's where those games pivot away from Vampire which is almost entirely about personal horror or collectivized horror to having an actual externalized struggle with a coherent structure of badness. (Not that there isn't a lot of personal horror in Wraith, a smidge in Werewolf and the possibility of it in Mage, it's just not what they are structured to be about.) (I guess the Baali and the Black Hand are sorta kinds attempts to poke at a similar idea. But they really don't cut it as they aren't fundamental to the underlying structure of Vampire, they're just a bunch of bad vampires acting particularly naughty.)

    Which isn't seeing it the other way at all. You're saying Transcendence is non-existence. So is Oblivion. If they end result is the same, the equivalence stands. That's another opinion. The answer we're given is that that is ONE possibility, but the only "truth" about Transcendence is that what it is is unknown. The idea that Transcendence just leads to Oblivion by a gentler path seems just as likely to be propaganda by those who have reasons to avoid it. Which is, in fact the Stygian party line. But, in your interpretation Eidolons are not really anything different than Shadows whispering at you from a different corner. Shadows are counseling you go out by graphic self-mutilation/take as many down with you as you- style suicide and Eidolons suggesting you just take the bottle of happy Transcendence pills and slip away.

    Which is certainly a type of Wraith game. A really, really bleak type of Wraith game that will appeal to a select group of people who want to explore that kind of aggravated nihilism. It's not, strictly speaking, Wraith as written. Sorta "Face Death.... And Turn Away in Utter Despair At the Bleakness and Pointlessness of Everything".

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    Except that there is no reason to think that Wraith should have a different viewpoint on corruption. It's part of the World of Darkness and pretty much every line shows the pull of Oblivion, the degeneration of the World, the encroaching Darkness. Vampires are all damned from the get go. The Wyrm is eating Reality alive. The very way in which the Entropy Sphere is characterized demonstrates that it's all about things falling apar (even when it isn't, but that's Mage for you). Changelings are withering under the Disbelief of a jaded Cosmos. And so on.

    Why should the ultimate corrupter be just ultimate but not corrupt? Why should Oblivion be just "POP!" followed by sweet, sweet nonexistence? That goes against the ultimate grain of fundamentals of every line.
    Does it corrupt though? I see the corruption of the Spectres as a largely self-inflicted thing; the product of their own self hatred. Oblivion eats away and lessens and lets its victims fill themselves in with what they will. It just so happens that those who want to be eaten away have a lot of Angst to fill the void with.

    I don't see the lines as all that similar either. Werewolf is a game about dealing with personifications so it fits for corruption to be an eldritch abomination. Mage is about human potential, so Entropy becomes another part of the process not a dread inevitability. Not every game needs a Corrupter, even when corruption and degradation are a major theme. Wraith is a personal game about what we do to ourselves, so placing responsibility for that on something else goes against the grain for me.

    And, while I do like your Shadow/Psyche/Eidolon passion play, I don't see that Transcendence necessarily or even realistically SHOULD equal Oblivion, just by the back door. Sure it's beautifully nihilistic but, ultimately, even that gets tired. If there's no way out at all and all hope is false hope then there is literally no point to do doing anything. You're just going to lose. Even raging against the dying of the light is pointless and absurd. That can work for games that come at it from another direction than a set of games that are supposed to be about passionate intensity. Most players and gamers shy away from it being that dark. Ultimately, there's a reason why that works better for games like Call of Cthulhu, where the discovery of the uncaring universe is written into the game as a degeneration that ultimately resets the play experience for almost every player's character. Figuring out the suckitude of it all drives the character hopelessly insane. Rinse and repeat. Second verse, same as the first. But, hey, you know what's going to happen going in, right?.
    I actually think of it the other way around. Transcendence is the inevitability, Oblivion is merely an optional step in the process. At the very worst the only thing that will be annihilated is the fragments of the person that would rather die than let go. Terrifying for the fragments, although possibly not as terrifying as the prospect that they are only the fragments.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

    We are getting into very different interpretations of the Underworld now, so let me get this out of the way. Your view is right. It is a perfectly reasonable picture of what is going on, and most of our differences seem to be a matter of perspective. Indeed, I'm not sure there is any concrete way of looking at the relationship between Oblivion and those near it.

    But I do find it more interesting to view Spectres as the forces of Angst that gather near the horribleness of Oblivion because of the promise of respite. They claim to serve its interests but they don't because it doesn't have any interests (or they do because everything eventually serves its interests). I think it raises more interesting questions about character and identity if the degeneration of Angst is in the human condition and not just the gravity of some external force. I also think it fits better with Oblivion as a passive corrupter, rather than the active one we already have in other cWoD games.

    Speaking of Transcendence, here's my view on that.

    Wraiths aren't the complete soul, they are the part that can't let go of the world and the part that wants to forget it. The soul is moving on one way or the other, the question is just if the Wraith can let go and take his experiences with it or be torn free so it can go without him. So in one sense both Transcendence and Oblivion lead to the same place, yet the difference between the two of them is very important.

    The Shadow says: "I would rather end than face Eternity as I am now."
    The Psyche says: "I would rather face Eternity as I am now than change into something else."
    The Eidolon says: "This train is departing as soon as you stop blocking the door. Are you in or out?"
    Except that there is no reason to think that Wraith should have a different viewpoint on corruption. It's part of the World of Darkness and pretty much every line shows the pull of Oblivion, the degeneration of the World, the encroaching Darkness. Vampires are all damned from the get go. The Wyrm is eating Reality alive. The very way in which the Entropy Sphere is characterized demonstrates that it's all about things falling apar (even when it isn't, but that's Mage for you). Changelings are withering under the Disbelief of a jaded Cosmos. And so on.

    Why should the ultimate corrupter be just ultimate but not corrupt? Why should Oblivion be just "POP!" followed by sweet, sweet nonexistence? That goes against the ultimate grain of fundamentals of every line.

    In the same way Transcendence is representative of the elusive "way out". Just like Golconda. Or Ascension. It MAY not even exist. But it MIGHT. And if it does.... then there is a tiny flickering candle flame against the endless encroaching darkness. Which TBH, makes the darkness that much worse. And, if it's all a lie that everyone is telling to gain a sense of false comfort... .well, that makes it all that much worse. (Though, even with the "resistance" ideologies out there, those eutrophic states are all in play in each game as per their rules and the choice to NOT have them be a part is ultimately and weirdly one that the ST has to positively and proactively make..)

    And, while I do like your Shadow/Psyche/Eidolon passion play, I don't see that Transcendence necessarily or even realistically SHOULD equal Oblivion, just by the back door. Sure it's beautifully nihilistic but, ultimately, even that gets tired. If there's no way out at all and all hope is false hope then there is literally no point to do doing anything. You're just going to lose. Even raging against the dying of the light is pointless and absurd. That can work for games that come at it from another direction than a set of games that are supposed to be about passionate intensity. Most players and gamers shy away from it being that dark. Ultimately, there's a reason why that works better for games like Call of Cthulhu, where the discovery of the uncaring universe is written into the game as a degeneration that ultimately resets the play experience for almost every player's character. Figuring out the suckitude of it all drives the character hopelessly insane. Rinse and repeat. Second verse, same as the first. But, hey, you know what's going to happen going in, right?.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    Transcendence is just a nicer way to meet Oblivion, IMO. Sometimes it's the route to reincarnation, but usually it just means a less painful way of becoming nothing again. Harrowings would, if that were the case, still serve Oblivion. Moreover, if you fail a Harrowing, you come closer to Oblivion but via the painful route--so win-win for Oblivion.

    As for the Hive-Mind? I've always read it as a connection to Oblivion itself. The self erodes by becoming part of the ocean of voices. That ocean is the funnelling portal leading to Oblivion. It's all a part of losing the unique ties that make you exist.

    Likewise, the Maelstroms are active and seem to spew out all kinds of matter, but they're still a part of Oblivion. Their task is to be the eroding wind, as the Hive-Mind is the drowning water, that carries you off to Oblivion. Oblivion is omnipresent. It is both a black hole and its gravitational pull. Spectres are the gravitons that effect that pull. The Well of the Void is just its event horizon.
    We are getting into very different interpretations of the Underworld now, so let me get this out of the way. Your view is right. It is a perfectly reasonable picture of what is going on, and most of our differences seem to be a matter of perspective. Indeed, I'm not sure there is any concrete way of looking at the relationship between Oblivion and those near it.

    But I do find it more interesting to view Spectres as the forces of Angst that gather near the horribleness of Oblivion because of the promise of respite. They claim to serve its interests but they don't because it doesn't have any interests (or they do because everything eventually serves its interests). I think it raises more interesting questions about character and identity if the degeneration of Angst is in the human condition and not just the gravity of some external force. I also think it fits better with Oblivion as a passive corrupter, rather than the active one we already have in other cWoD games.

    Speaking of Transcendence, here's my view on that.

    Wraiths aren't the complete soul, they are the part that can't let go of the world and the part that wants to forget it. The soul is moving on one way or the other, the question is just if the Wraith can let go and take his experiences with it or be torn free so it can go without him. So in one sense both Transcendence and Oblivion lead to the same place, yet the difference between the two of them is very important.

    The Shadow says: "I would rather end than face Eternity as I am now."
    The Psyche says: "I would rather face Eternity as I am now than change into something else."
    The Eidolon says: "This train is departing as soon as you stop blocking the door. Are you in or out?"

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

    Ultimately that's just spectral propaganda though. They can call themselves whatever they want, but they don't represent Oblivion, they don't hear from Oblivion, and in one of those delightful ironies that make Wraith what it is, they continue to struggle against its inevitable gravity.

    But there's something else that makes me doubt their associations with Oblivion: Harrowings. Harrowings, corrupted though they may be now, are remnants of a system for helping Wraiths move on. Though Spectres may delight in the chance to torment, they are still forced participants. In fact, of the two elements that are metaphysically forced on Spectres- Harrowings and the Hive Mind- neither one seems to have anything to do with Oblivion itself.
    Transcendence is just a nicer way to meet Oblivion, IMO. Sometimes it's the route to reincarnation, but usually it just means a less painful way of becoming nothing again. Harrowings would, if that were the case, still serve Oblivion. Moreover, if you fail a Harrowing, you come closer to Oblivion but via the painful route--so win-win for Oblivion.

    As for the Hive-Mind? I've always read it as a connection to Oblivion itself. The self erodes by becoming part of the ocean of voices. That ocean is the funnelling portal leading to Oblivion. It's all a part of losing the unique ties that make you exist.

    Likewise, the Maelstroms are active and seem to spew out all kinds of matter, but they're still a part of Oblivion. Their task is to be the eroding wind, as the Hive-Mind is the drowning water, that carries you off to Oblivion. Oblivion is omnipresent. It is both a black hole and its gravitational pull. Spectres are the gravitons that effect that pull. The Well of the Void is just its event horizon.
    Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 01-08-2017, 07:36 PM.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    There's Oblivion the Force, however, and Oblivion the Army. The two are both called Oblivion but one is passive and the other is an Angst-fuelled legion of hate. However, both can be understood as Oblivion in the wider sense. Hence, it really depends how you're using the term. You're right; the Neverborn probably have so much Angst because they want to be nothing again. But then, at the same time, they also don't, or they'd throw themselves into the Void. Orpheus explores that contradiction more (yes, I know it's not canon, but the theme is there in Wraith too).
    Ultimately that's just spectral propaganda though. They can call themselves whatever they want, but they don't represent Oblivion, they don't hear from Oblivion, and in one of those delightful ironies that make Wraith what it is, they continue to struggle against its inevitable gravity.

    But there's something else that makes me doubt their associations with Oblivion: Harrowings. Harrowings, corrupted though they may be now, are remnants of a system for helping Wraiths move on. Though Spectres may delight in the chance to torment, they are still forced participants. In fact, of the two elements that are metaphysically forced on Spectres- Harrowings and the Hive Mind- neither one seems to have anything to do with Oblivion itself.

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
    I have a hard time considering the Neverborn, or even Grandmother for that matter, to be a part of Oblivion. If they were, they wouldn't exist as separate things. They want Oblivion, sure, but they want other things as well. Indeed there's a good argument that all of their pain and Angst arises because they can't have Oblivion. Also Orpheus has a different set of themes than Wraith, so even if Grandmother is the actual embodiment of Oblivion she gives us only limited insight.
    There's Oblivion the Force, however, and Oblivion the Army. The two are both called Oblivion but one is passive and the other is an Angst-fuelled legion of hate. However, both can be understood as Oblivion in the wider sense. Hence, it really depends how you're using the term. You're right; the Neverborn probably have so much Angst because they want to be nothing again. But then, at the same time, they also don't, or they'd throw themselves into the Void. Orpheus explores that contradiction more (yes, I know it's not canon, but the theme is there in Wraith too).

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    I have a hard time considering the Neverborn, or even Grandmother for that matter, to be a part of Oblivion. If they were, they wouldn't exist as separate things. They want Oblivion, sure, but they want other things as well. Indeed there's a good argument that all of their pain and Angst arises because they can't have Oblivion. Also Orpheus has a different set of themes than Wraith, so even if Grandmother is the actual embodiment of Oblivion she gives us only limited insight.

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
    Hate? Nah, Oblivion just wants to give the world a big hug.

    Edit: For the record, I'm of the opinion that Oblivion is utterly passive and has no wants or desires at all. Angst and Spectres are drawn to it like moths are drawn to a flame, but it doesn't want to spread suffering any more than fire wants to make more insects.
    It depends which part of Oblivion you're referring to. The Grand Maw is impersonal and passive. Grandmother, the semi-canon thing that sees itself as the embodiment of Oblivion, or the Grand Maw, is neither. And the Neverborn are full of hate and destruction and either spawned directly from the Well of the Void or are similarly manifestations of Oblivion directly.
    Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 01-05-2017, 09:56 AM.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Hate? Nah, Oblivion just wants to give the world a big hug.

    Edit: For the record, I'm of the opinion that Oblivion is utterly passive and has no wants or desires at all. Angst and Spectres are drawn to it like moths are drawn to a flame, but it doesn't want to spread suffering any more than fire wants to make more insects.
    Last edited by Ramnesis; 01-03-2017, 12:44 PM.

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Don't forget that Shadows have (Dark) Passions too and they want to fulfil them. How can you fulfil 'Destroy all I love (Spite)' if you just hurl yourself into Oblivion? Presumably only Shadows with the Dark Passion 'Jump into the Mouth of the Void (Nihilism)' and nothing else want to obliterate themselves.

    In the long run, this all serves Oblivion better. Spreading the Angst is more useful for Oblivion than just snuffing itself out. It's going to eat the world eventually anyway. Better to indulge its inexhaustible hate for the universe while it still can.

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