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  • origin of malfeans contradiction.

    wraith core rulebook says "they were born by the violence of the sundering"
    problem is that while other books(and even that book) imply that they are unspeakably ancient... the sundering happened (according to this book at least) after the time of gilgamesh... which by wod standards is not THAT old..

  • #2
    Well, Wr20 is not yet out, so we can flag this as a thing to note and possibly request a change on when the preview pdf hits.

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    • #3
      The question you have to ask is, how would the Wraiths of the time known if they were born then or just awakened for the first time then?


      Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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      • #4
        ok,i thought about a bit more and i believe that the best way is tret this issue is to interpret the wraith historian's words allegorically. for instance aeneas can't be older than the shroud... given that he almost certainly lived after charon's death. it's just that the non existence of a shroud gave rise to these events and the neverborn were not "manifested" until then>??

        that's what came to my mind anyway.

        so perhaps (from a metagame perspective)

        the neverborn come into being or their roles at the dawn of the second age, they get broken at the beginning of the third age and manifest in the underworld at the fourth age. which coincided with the strengthening of the shroud and the beginning of modern history

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          Well, Wr20 is not yet out, so we can flag this as a thing to note and possibly request a change on when the preview pdf hits.
          This actually brings up a question I was pondering. I was going to purchase the 2nd Edition from DTG, but should I wait fro Wr20?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by EldritchMinister View Post

            This actually brings up a question I was pondering. I was going to purchase the 2nd Edition from DTG, but should I wait fro Wr20?
            Well, it's a lot closer now than when the KS was still fresh. It's listed as being in editing, so if you can wait two months or so, just wait.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mark View Post
              ok,i thought about a bit more and i believe that the best way is tret this issue is to interpret the wraith historian's words allegorically. for instance aeneas can't be older than the shroud... given that he almost certainly lived after charon's death. it's just that the non existence of a shroud gave rise to these events and the neverborn were not "manifested" until then>??

              that's what came to my mind anyway.

              so perhaps (from a metagame perspective)

              the neverborn come into being or their roles at the dawn of the second age, they get broken at the beginning of the third age and manifest in the underworld at the fourth age. which coincided with the strengthening of the shroud and the beginning of modern history
              Aeneas didn't live after Charon's death. They are both of the Mycenaen era. In fact, Aeneas is pretty much de facto terminal Late Mycenaean. Considering who "Charon" very likely was when he was still alive, they are, in fact contemporaries. Doing very much the same thing (wandering about trying to find a/get back home) at the same time in roughly the same place (e.g. the Mediterranean) In fact, they have very similar epics.....

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              • #8
                Are you implying that Charon is Odysseus? I never thought of that. Do you have any evidence to support that theory?


                Our society is held together by the thinnest of threads: that exquisitely refined sense of tribal order.
                Edith Wharton, The Age of Innocence

                I am a huge fan of both the Trinity Universe and the classic World of Darkness.

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                • #9
                  I sometimes wondered if primordial beings existed from before the universe, but they were potential beings or somehow slumbering. The Sundering occurred when the first of these beings were slain, to provide a space for the fractured husks of their undying forms after the paradox of their murder. These spiritual remnants are the Malfeans.

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                  • #10
                    That's the Exalted explanation. There's no real evidence for it in the WoD but it's as good a story seed as any.

                    You could also say that the Malfeans were dead things from a previous universe and they somehow still defy Oblivion.


                    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                    • #11
                      Well to be fair there are two types of Malfeans, Onceborn who could have been born after the Sundering as they were once humans. And Neverborn who were never human and are possibly older then the current Universe.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Well to be fair there are two types of Malfeans, Onceborn who could have been born after the Sundering as they were once humans. And Neverborn who were never human and are possibly older then the current Universe.

                        Yeah, this is the easiest read to go with.

                        At my own table, the Neverborn are pieces of Nothingness driven self-aware with pain and madness by the explosion of existence, who started tearing at the universe and gnawing their way in at its weakest point (the Void).

                        Similar pieces of Nothingness, who rather than tearing their way in got trapped in the universe by its creation are the sessile Children worshiped or fearfully appeased by the Baali.

                        And that self-aware Nothingness which still lies outside the universe alltogether, clawing at it in maddened rage, are the Outer Lords served by the K'llassha Nephandi.


                        Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                        • #13
                          I think the suggestion in Tal'mahe'Ra is that the Children are the physical husks of the Neverborn (or at least manifestations of them in the physical world), while their minds sleep near the Well of the Void. Keeping the minds from joining with their physical counterparts keeps the Neverborn from destroying the entire world.

                          Similarly, the Book of Madness has the Outer Lords as dreams of the Neverborn out beyond the boundaries of known space.

                          Another theory raised before is that they're fragments of dead universes (or Grandma is, at least) or the antithesis of the Psychopomps. In this scheme of things, they represent Descension, or the Qlippoth.

                          However, the Sundering occurs at different times in each line. So you can afford some flexibility with their origins as suits your game. They might be none of these things or all of them.

                          I like the idea of them as the Red King in Through the Looking Glass: if they wake, the world ends. Maybe they're the embodiment of the inherent contradiction of Something that arises from Nothing. All things are perhaps just a fleeting dream of Oblivion.
                          Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 05-07-2017, 05:27 AM.

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