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How dangerous is and elder Giovanni for a Wraith?

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  • How dangerous is and elder Giovanni for a Wraith?

    Even without taking in account the mere fact that they che bind wraith with their blood-magic ,what in the underworld would be able to fight on equal term an elder Giovanni?



    I mean, even if you take Coldheart, who was the most badass among the Nephwrack and one of the big bad in the third and fourth Maelstrom, he wuold be terribly underdstatted against an elder like Lucretia Giovanni, not to mention people like Ambrogino.



    I even took a look at Orpheus, and even a being like Tulgammon the Tainted, which is an Hekatonkhire, or even Vidod the Monger, which is a lesser Malfeans,(or even the Kraken in Wraith second edition) would be seriously in danger against an Elder like Lucretia. Now, this make me think that a beast like Japhhet would be not much weaker than a greater Malfean.


    EDIT.

    I immagine this is also the reason the wraiths used a Nuke to take down Enoch.
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 05-11-2017, 05:03 PM.

  • Ajax
    replied
    Wards are awesome. As is a family of ghouls with a fair number of necromancers, some mediums, some who can just perceive ghosts in some way...

    I'm sure that the Giovanni in Venice have defense in depth around their primary centers of power that would give a Deathlord pause. After all, Augustus SO good with necromancy, he impressed a 3rd generation vampire enough to want to embrace him to bring that know-how into the Clan of Death.

    And, as good little children, Giovanni elsewhere will try to set things in as similar a fashion as much as their lesser resources allow. A competent Giovanni elder is going to be a difficult target for most groups of wraiths.

    Conversely, a LOT of motivated coordinated wraiths with the right (admittedly mostly illegal) Arcanoi could seriously cramp the style of any Giovanni outside Venice.

    I usually have the Giovanni and the wraiths have a sort of low profile detente with elements of a Cold War footing. Most wraiths don't know about them at all. The Giovanni poach from around the edges of Necropolis society - the wraiths that don't have strong ties to a group with power (the Hierarchy, most Renegade or Heretic factions). The wraiths in the Necropolis who need to know (primarily relevant parts of the Hierarchy) and those who come across relevant info know about the Giovanni. Sometimes the Giovanni are able to make alliances with groups, usually outliers, but occasionally a Centurion, Aedile, or even the odd power-hungry Anacreon might make a deal with the ghost-snatching undead devils....

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  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I would assume that the haven of any Giovanni with even a rudimentary knowledge of Necromancy is pretty well warded against ghosts compared to that of your average vampire, though. Wraiths with their noses out of joint sure aren't going to be staging successful commando raids against the Mausoleum in Venice.

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  • Herbert_West
    replied
    Depends on who's turf it is on, and if its day or night. Remember, a Wraith can rather easily tear down a Haven if it wants to. Agustus might be a passable diablerist, but he aint sunproof.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    One advantage Wraiths have is that they can augment their abilities with Artifacts and other objects of power, and that they can bring with them large numbers of allies to overwhelm their opponents. Another is that they can strike back in many indirect ways.

    These kind of creatures don't seek fights on equal terms. They want the field of battle to be somewhere which benefits them.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    He could use his spooky Level 10 Disciplines on her. If the power level of Augustus Giovanni is "DM fiat" then I think anything below that is going to lose in a head to head battle.

    Baba Yaga shows up in her hut. Casts some spells. Uses some Potence against his "doesn't die if he doesn't want to" 3rd Generation-ness. Summons a lot of animals.

    Augustus Giovanni summons and materializes the ghosts of everyone she ever killed. And everyone who ever mourned everyone she ever killed. And everyone who died as an immediate proximate cause of her actions.

    Plus, in many scenarios, Augustus is just as much a sock puppet concealing the hand of Cappadocius and his plan to diablerize God as Tremere is for whichever Saulot suits your taste.

    In any case, it's still a game vs. game thing. I'd probably go with Cappadocious, much less Augustus, having serious issues with one of the great Cthulhu-like Neverborn with a "consign him back to the Abyss from which he came" as the optimal outcome. (Since, probably, it seems like Charon was more able to trick Gorool with that "subsume my Pasiphae" thing and use that as leverage to change the nature of the fight enough that he could skew the outcome to one that was less apocalyptic for Stygia than it was outright sickle & lantern hand-to-hand combat in a skiff vs. a kaiju)
    Last edited by Ajax; 05-15-2017, 01:02 PM.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Its not so much this game vs that game, its just that Giovanni are more fit to prey against the ghosts of People, You need Cappadocius himself to prey on bigger things, and even he would choose carefully when picking fights with Malfeans.

    And neither of these games I would say are "my game", I like them both, its just come on Giovanni isn't exactly king of the Hill, Baba Yaga would break him in half.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    Well, technically,I would say that Spirit 2 cannot "force" the spirit to come, that's the province of Spirit 4 (if the ST doesn't see fitting to add more Spheres). Still it must be annoying to be called from the other side of the Atlantic. We don't have a lot of data on how to roleplay this. I guess that it's like you suddenly feel a strong desire to go to Chicago, like someone it's walking over your grave there (even when you have nothing to do in that city), but no way you can cross the ocean so easily (unless Argos).

    You can do lots of stuff with Spirit 2, you can build protections vs Wraiths, alarms to alert you of Wraith proximity, and attack wraiths directly with anything from magic to physical weapons, all without crossing to the other side. So, it's not like that it's useless by any means.



    Weren't the Kraken stats from 2º edition just the stats for one of its tentacles?. I believe that the stats given are just so you can hurt the beast limbs enough so it let's you go, but the actual beast has no Traits, and it's too big to be destroyed by normal means.
    Spirit 2 summons the Spirit. Spirit 4 and you can force into a fetish-analgoue, force it possess someone or not possess someone, bind it to location for a haunting thing or any other way you want to make it your bitch. But Spirit 2 should work just fine to summon your standard wraith. Just like the Sepulchre Path at 2. And you can trap it there.

    Bag it and tag it.

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  • Aleph
    replied
    Well, technically,I would say that Spirit 2 cannot "force" the spirit to come, that's the province of Spirit 4 (if the ST doesn't see fitting to add more Spheres). Still it must be annoying to be called from the other side of the Atlantic. We don't have a lot of data on how to roleplay this. I guess that it's like you suddenly feel a strong desire to go to Chicago, like someone it's walking over your grave there (even when you have nothing to do in that city), but no way you can cross the ocean so easily (unless Argos).

    You can do lots of stuff with Spirit 2, you can build protections vs Wraiths, alarms to alert you of Wraith proximity, and attack wraiths directly with anything from magic to physical weapons, all without crossing to the other side. So, it's not like that it's useless by any means.

    Originally posted by Undead rabbit
    even the Kraken in Wraith second edition would be seriously in danger against an Elder like Lucretia
    Weren't the Kraken stats from 2º edition just the stats for one of its tentacles?. I believe that the stats given are just so you can hurt the beast limbs enough so it let's you go, but the actual beast has no Traits, and it's too big to be destroyed by normal means.
    Last edited by Aleph; 05-12-2017, 01:01 PM.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    It's getting into "this game" vs. "that game", my splat vs. your splat, my dad can beat up your dad territory.

    From Vampire, wraiths are pretty easy to mess with. From Wraith, vampires are pretty much just flammable toys. Wraiths are even less of an issue vs. a Mage with Spirit 2 and a vidare of the Dark Umbra. (I can summon ANY Wraith and there's nothing to say it can't be a wraith that's pretty much anywhere.... so, sucks to be therm if some dude in Chicago calls up a ghost who lives in Necropolis Paris. That's a long slog to get home, unless there's a lot of Argos around. Probably better to just gack oneself, get through the Harrowing and wind up back at Fetter No. 1.)

    Though, I somehow doubt that Cappadocius and Augustus Giovanni, et al. would have been working so hard to get at the power of the Underworld if there wasn't something significant there.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    I'm pretty sure the Kraken, wouldn't be afraid of Lucretia, more like the other way around. And even Giovanni himself would be hard pressed against The Dragon Malfean that wears the Jade Emperor's Soul.

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