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  • Mercurial
    started a topic Sandmen motivations?

    Sandmen motivations?

    What are the motivations of the Sandmen and why do they try to control and encourage dreams? I know Changelings try to save the Dreaming by encouraging Dreamers, but what motivates the Wraiths who encourages artistic endeavors?

  • Ajax
    replied
    It's messing with the mortal world. They may not be a de facto Criminal Guild but that doesn't mean they get a pass. It's like Keening. Chanteurs who mess with the Skinlands are just as guilty as those who use Outrage, Puppetry, Pandemonium, Alchemy, etc. but, since their Arcanos is equally useful in the Skinlands, they aren't inherently malefactors. (Hells, Alchemcy indicates that it's not just messing with the living that's an issue, since it's just messing with the stuff in the Skinlands. Arguably, Phantasm, as it works directly on a mortal, is a much worse crime when used in that way...)

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post
    So..... Total and utter violation of the Dictum. Sandman meet Artificer. Welcome to eternity as a moaning doorstop.
    I've never heard that visiting the living in DREAMS violate the Dictum. Since the Sandmen are not one of the Criminal Guilds, I assume the Hierarchy is fine with that provided their dream visits do not harm the living.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    My understanding is that their involvement in Dreams is because of a desire to be able to do something outside the actual underworld. Entering someone's dreams means they aren't in the Underworld anymore, and the Dream Theatres of their Guild aren't in the Underworld either. And they're able to enter some of the greater Dream Realms which also exist outside the Underworld. This is the closest to being alive that they can get. That is a pretty big allure. In all of these places not only are they able to interact with the dream selves of the living, but powerful mortals and creatures who can do the same, and that would include Mages, Werewolves, and Faerie.
    So..... Total and utter violation of the Dictum. Sandman meet Artificer. Welcome to eternity as a moaning doorstop.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    My understanding is that their involvement in Dreams is because of a desire to be able to do something outside the actual underworld. Entering someone's dreams means they aren't in the Underworld anymore, and the Dream Theatres of their Guild aren't in the Underworld either. And they're able to enter some of the greater Dream Realms which also exist outside the Underworld. This is the closest to being alive that they can get. That is a pretty big allure. In all of these places not only are they able to interact with the dream selves of the living, but powerful mortals and creatures who can do the same, and that would include Mages, Werewolves, and Faerie.

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  • Prince of the Night
    replied
    Was thinking the wraith could cause beautiful dreams "Just to be nice" just an idea...

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post
    Did Casper invade people's dreams? Seemed more like he had a LOT of Embody. And enough Argos to fly (without the stupid wings... so many ghosts floating, flying, so few EVERY described as being winged....) And enough Moliate to look cute.
    Possibly not Moliate, if Bart Simpson is right about Casper being the ghost of Richie Rich.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Did Casper invade people's dreams? Seemed more like he had a LOT of Embody. And enough Argos to fly (without the stupid wings... so many ghosts floating, flying, so few EVERY described as being winged....) And enough Moliate to look cute.

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  • Prince of the Night
    replied
    Maybe some of them are Casper? :looks around nervously... unsure if he said something stupid or not:

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  • marin
    replied
    Yeah, I think that pretty much sums up the situation.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    "I don't care how naughty someone was. Those people are on a most-wanted list or serving their eternity as moaning doorstops. I also don't care about the ones that are being naughty now, except insofar as they are on the lists to be made into moaning doorstops in the near future.

    What I care about is that there is absolutely no decent entertainment at my party, RIGHT NOW, HERE (in Stygia).

    Get me that Sandman who makes the pretty shiny dreams and the other one who does the thing with the rusty skewers - you know, the one those Grim Legion types like.

    What? What do you mean that their Guild is forbidden? Find the ones that aren't in the Guild. Because there is no Guild, right? <wink, wink, nudge> The Guild were destroyed simply AGES ago. Now, there's just skilled professionals and dangerous criminals.

    Get me some of the former. Or, if necessary, some of the later that can at least pass...."

    -virtually any Domem trying to impress

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  • marin
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    Which doesn't really fit. Sandmen and Chanteurs affect both the living and the dead. And the both perform a desirable service. Particularly when one gets away from the Shadowlands and mortals generating Pathos. They're effectively the grocers and chefs of the underworld.

    So, yeah, their Arcanoi CAN be used to do illegal badness, but it's just too useful to not have around because of that potential. It's not like they are doing Outrage or Phantasm or Puppetry or Alchemy (etc.) whose users are walking violations of the Dictuum.

    Meaning, Sandmen and Chanteurs shouldn't be more associated with the Renegades. That makes no sense. The Hierarchy should be snapping them up and making them as comfortable as possible. Like rock stars and high end chefs. Because, in terms of "living the high death", the Hierarchy is where it's at. Why would you WANT to mess around in some mortal's dreams or play banshee, all the while existing on the nasty fringes of society, one step away from the forges, when you could be working on your Arcanos to try to and make it so you would be the one that the Anacreons are trying to outbid each other to add to their household?
    First, need to make an important distinction. Sandmen can be divided into two groups, the Dream Union, aka the Sandmen's Guild, and freelancers, non-Guild members. The Guild is primarily Renegade; freelancers orientate to neutrality, the Hierarchy or the Heretics. So yes, there are Sandmen who join up with the Hierarchy, but the Guild is not that way inclined.

    Now, there was a time when Guild members did indeed live the high life, were feted by the nobles of the Hierarchy. That time was before the Breaking of the Guilds. As the Sandmen tell it, they went overboard, abused their privileges - certainly, something triggered a backlash from the Hierarchy after the Breaking, led them to stop supporting Sandmen of all political stripes and start snubbing them. Sandmen did join up with the Hierarchy post-Breaking, but it wasn't the easiest experience; more Sandmen joined the Renegades at this point then at any previous.

    Relations with the Hierarchy certainly haven't been helped by events such as the early 19th century Denouement, when the Hierarchy cracked down on the Sandmen, and the resulting War of the Proscenium, as the Guild went satirical and subversive, taking the piss out of Hierarchs, who cracked down even further, pushing the Guild even further Renegade. (Of note is that Hierarchy-backed freelancers enjoyed a major high point in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, and the cessation of Hierarchy persecution of the Guild led to the intermingling and sharing of ideas between the freelancers and the Guild.)

    To sum up, practicality would suggest the Sandmen's Guild affiliate with the Hierarchy, but politics and history have instead pushed it to the Renegades.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Pathos, money, psychotherapy, political aspirations, and art for art's sake, in some sort of order.

    Added: My favorite faction of the Sandmen has always been the Dream Menders, followed by their close cousins the Fortifiers.
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 05-21-2017, 07:58 PM.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by marin View Post

    The Guild is primarily aligned with the Renegades...

    And quite often - particularly with their more psychological goals - they can get away with interacting with mortals without leaving any evidence.
    Which doesn't really fit. Sandmen and Chanteurs affect both the living and the dead. And the both perform a desirable service. Particularly when one gets away from the Shadowlands and mortals generating Pathos. They're effectively the grocers and chefs of the underworld.

    So, yeah, their Arcanoi CAN be used to do illegal badness, but it's just too useful to not have around because of that potential. It's not like they are doing Outrage or Phantasm or Puppetry or Alchemy (etc.) whose users are walking violations of the Dictuum.

    Meaning, Sandmen and Chanteurs shouldn't be more associated with the Renegades. That makes no sense. The Hierarchy should be snapping them up and making them as comfortable as possible. Like rock stars and high end chefs. Because, in terms of "living the high death", the Hierarchy is where it's at. Why would you WANT to mess around in some mortal's dreams or play banshee, all the while existing on the nasty fringes of society, one step away from the forges, when you could be working on your Arcanos to try to and make it so you would be the one that the Anacreons are trying to outbid each other to add to their household?

    Leave a comment:


  • marin
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    Because they don't mind the idea of spending the rest of eternity as a moaning doorstop?
    The Guild is primarily aligned with the Renegades...

    And quite often - particularly with their more psychological goals - they can get away with interacting with mortals without leaving any evidence.

    Leave a comment:

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