Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Modern RPG Safety and Wraith20

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Modern RPG Safety and Wraith20

    The hobby has come a long, long way since Wraith was originally published, and in many ways the current storygame renaissance seems more welcome to a moody, collaborative game about ghosts and their baggage than the Wild West of the 90s. One of the things we’ve thankfully come a long way on is explicitly providing tools to keep players safe: session zeroes, discussion of lines and veils, the X card... Wraith perhaps suffered because it is a game strongly about personal suffering, with ready parallels to mental health, addiction, abuse, and suicide in the fiction (or sometimes, not metaphors at all), and with the potential for intens emotional bleed, it may have been too unruly for the hobby of the time.

    So I have to ask: will Wraith20 incorporate some of these newer tools into it? I can’t imagine play without them, and in thinking about how much Wraith seems to share with younger offerings like Monsterhearts or Bluebeard’s Bride, I can’t help but hope for it to learn modern games’ best lessons.


    Call me Regina or Lex.

    Female pronouns for me, please.

  • #2
    It might also be worth mentioning that The Shoah book was one of the most mature takes on the holocaust in a fiction book in my opinion

    As if wether they well incorporate these safety tools, doubt it, nWoD writers have some sensitivity when it comes to their players, 20th anniversary and contemporary oWoD writers are trying to be painfully edgy and completely misunderstood what "mature themes" really suggest
    Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 10-08-2017, 03:27 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
      It might also be worth mentioning that The Shoah book was one of the most mature takes on the holocaust in a fiction book in my opinion

      As if wether they well incorporate these safety tools, doubt it, nWoD writers have some sensitivity when it comes to their players, 20th anniversary and contemporary oWoD writers are trying to be painfully edgy and completely misunderstood what "mature themes" really suggest
      In what way have the 20th anniversary edition writers been "painfully edgy"? They've been curating all of the old stuff and re-tuning it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Always found CWoD to be Painfully campy to be honest.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
          20th anniversary and contemporary oWoD writers are trying to be painfully edgy and completely misunderstood what "mature themes" really suggest
          I have a hard time believing things are as bad as people getting nuWW and OPP mixed up or believing they are exactly the same.

          Comment


          • #6
            Other than Brucato making some cringingly eye-rolly (but well meaning) decisions and letting magical thinking seep into places it doesn't belong - the immediate thing that springs to mind is his approach to trans people in M20, which suffers from letting magical thoughts on gender binaries and mystic polarities seep into a place it doesn't belong - the 20th anniversary editions are about as far from 'painfully edgy' as any pre-NWW oWoD content has ever been, from what I've seen.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by loomer View Post
              Other than Brucato making some cringingly eye-rolly (but well meaning) decisions and letting magical thinking seep into places it doesn't belong - the immediate thing that springs to mind is his approach to trans people in M20, which suffers from letting magical thoughts on gender binaries and mystic polarities seep into a place it doesn't belong - the 20th anniversary editions are about as far from 'painfully edgy' as any pre-NWW oWoD content has ever been, from what I've seen.
              Wait what?

              Like, I'm aware of the criticisms of Brucato injecting too much of his personal beliefs into M20 (going through Book of Secrets right now and...yeah I can see this kind of thing taking people out of reading the book), but what's wrong with his writings on trans peoples?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                Wait what?

                Like, I'm aware of the criticisms of Brucato injecting too much of his personal beliefs into M20 (going through Book of Secrets right now and...yeah I can see this kind of thing taking people out of reading the book), but what's wrong with his writings on trans peoples?
                I can't speak to M20, but I know there's a pretty nasty tendency to take trans characters and extrapolate their identities into some kind of transgressive magical form, arguing that their gender is inherently liminal and magical because it's outside the norm.

                Also, I know older Ascension material has been... less than great about trans folks. Not so fond memories of the Chinese infernalists who live as women.


                Call me Regina or Lex.

                Female pronouns for me, please.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

                  I can't speak to M20, but I know there's a pretty nasty tendency to take trans characters and extrapolate their identities into some kind of transgressive magical form, arguing that their gender is inherently liminal and magical because it's outside the norm.

                  .
                  I know trans people and third gender people who do explore that in their spirituality, so it doesn’t bother me that that is included (just as their are some cis Mages who explore cultural gender associations and symbols in their paradigms) - but certainly trans mages whose paradigm has nothing at all to do with their gender should ALSO have prominent representation so that isn’t inherently seen as representative while its existent.

                  And yeah, the Wu-Keng needed to go!
                  Last edited by glamourweaver; 10-09-2017, 05:11 PM.


                  Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                    I have a hard time believing things are as bad as people getting nuWW and OPP mixed up or believing they are exactly the same.
                    Yeah, NuWW certainly fits the bill so far. The OPP writers for 20th products most certainly do not.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by loomer View Post
                      Other than Brucato making some cringingly eye-rolly (but well meaning) decisions and letting magical thinking seep into places it doesn't belong - the immediate thing that springs to mind is his approach to trans people in M20, which suffers from letting magical thoughts on gender binaries and mystic polarities seep into a place it doesn't belong - the 20th anniversary editions are about as far from 'painfully edgy' as any pre-NWW oWoD content has ever been, from what I've seen.
                      C20 did not share this issue, so I'm assuming that M20 is the odd one out and that Wr20 will be more in line with the other three (particularly because it shares a "making up for not having a Revised edition" thing in common with C20).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                        C20 did not share this issue, so I'm assuming that M20 is the odd one out and that Wr20 will be more in line with the other three (particularly because it shares a "making up for not having a Revised edition" thing in common with C20).
                        The most you could argue for C20 is its depiction of the antagonist group Shadow Court.

                        With its association and apparent connection to movements like Occupy and BLM...but that’s about it. And the book doesn’t really dwell on it much and I’d say it’s less offensive and more just...odd.

                        (And from my understanding, the Shadow Court has always been kind of weird in CtD)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Whatever the flaws of other lines, Wraith is strongly connected to issues of depression, mental illness, and self destruction and presents unique challenges because of it. Even if these topics are approached with the best of care they are still going to be painful for some players. Indeed, when the connection between Shadowguiding and these issues isn't explicit, it often unnerves and upsets players without anyone understanding why. To that end, I would be very surprised if the Roleplaying chapter didn't have at least some advice for approaching these issues in game as well as a sidebar or two with tools like the X card.




                          Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                            Wait what?

                            Like, I'm aware of the criticisms of Brucato injecting too much of his personal beliefs into M20 (going through Book of Secrets right now and...yeah I can see this kind of thing taking people out of reading the book), but what's wrong with his writings on trans peoples?
                            Basically, he does two things. First, he treats trans people a few times as constituting a distinct third gender. While I am a pretty firm believer in third (and more, for that matter) genders and genderqueer/non-binary status, the vast majority of transpeople are not third gender but very much either male or female. The second is a couple of places where he suggests that the trans identity - occupying the 'third gender' space - is inherently mystical.

                            Neither are especially bad, which is why I called them cringey but well-meaning. They're bad in the same way that going 'all <ethnicity> are magic because of <ethnicity!>' It's the sort of thing that used to be kind of inclusive, but is now fairly dated as an approach. The former is basically an error of phrasing and contextualization ('transpeople break the binary, therefore they are outside the binary and constitute a third gender' as opposed to 'some transpeople's identity lies entirely outside the binary, while the majority rest mostly inside it other than the social challenge they present to its most rigid implementations') rather than anything done in malice.

                            The latter I find especially annoying as an occultist, since it obscures and dilutes the actual 'magical symbolism' of the hermaphrodite by confusing that lofty symbol with physically intersex and transgender people. The reason the hermaphrodite has a certain magical luster as a concept is to do with the sublimation and exaltation of the male/female binary into a single being, emblematically being also the sublimation of the larger positive/negative dark/light sacred/profane opposition into a unified whole, which is the aim of a fairly large swathe of (mostly dualistic) Western esoteric thought as a whole. It's nothing to do with 'and Jane has a penis, so she's magic'.

                            To be clear, since it's come up before, there's nothing wrong with having trans characters who've had their experiences of transitioning provide a source of insight, strength, or mystical awakening (indeed, physical changes, social status changes, and exploration of boundaries make great sources for those things regardless of whether its gender or something else) - it's just a bit on the nose to declare the trans experience innately magical (outside of the definition of magic that defines it as the process of a person, by means of their will (not their Will), exerting a change on reality, in which case it is magical but no more so than anything else. LMdQ uses the example of asking for a glass of water from someone - by this loose definition, this is an act of magic) outside of that individualized context or certain very specific third-gender traditions in non-Western (or even Archaic Western) cultures.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Wraith never stuck me as a system where these guidelines have to be explicitly and bluntly spelled out. It's basically collaborative therapy, the game, so I always ran, or participated in, games with a zeroth session and hard/soft limits.

                              It might be my background in BDSM. but it never occurred to me that this is not a self-evident thing to do.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X