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Modern RPG Safety and Wraith20

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

    Aah, since he quoted the LARP part I thought he was referring to that. Well, it's going to be optional so I see no real issue, but I'm still going to rage at someone if I see red cards when I'm playing at a convention. =p
    I meant that they're certainly aware of the concept, since it is very prominent in the Nordic-type LARPs some of them is very experienced in and which served as the "system" for their big WoD LARP events so far. For example, consent-based conflict resolution and scaleable immersion was very talked about and important at Convention of Thorns. So I thought things like that, or the X-card would certainly be in V5, to some extent, based on that and yup, Martin said so in the interview.

    Oh, how outrageously edgelord they are....


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    • #77
      Eh, stuff like the X-card, pre-game briefings and signed contracts to play is very, very necessary in Nordic LARP especially considering the very dark material that is used, blurring of IC and OOC consent and the insane depth of character immersion that is sought after in some Nordic LARP styles and cultures. In most LARPs around the world which at least in the UK, US and Oz tend to be much, much lighter and include tons of OOC interaction in-game time, not so much.....but as they are coming from Nordic LARP where its pretty damn essential to avoid trauma, alienation and attention from the authorities they would be focused that way.

      As for edgelord......well, a number of accounts do tend towards Swedracula not being quite so on top of things regarding consent in the past, hopefully he's learned from that.
      Last edited by Damian May; 11-10-2017, 09:38 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

        Aah, since he quoted the LARP part I thought he was referring to that. Well, it's going to be optional so I see no real issue, but I'm still going to rage at someone if I see red cards when I'm playing at a convention. =p

        Pretty sure convention games ( at any decently run convention) would have to have all of their policies mentioned and documented on sign up, so you'd know about consent policies before you got involved.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Damian May View Post
          Pretty sure convention games ( at any decently run convention) would have to have all of their policies mentioned and documented on sign up, so you'd know about consent policies before you got involved.
          Don't get me wrong, my issue is not that people could feel sick or anything. My issue is when a person raises a card to ask to drop the current argument from the scene, if he raises a card and then goes away until it's done I'm fine - even if the ST could need to find a workaround.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by PMárk View Post
            consent-based conflict resolution and scaleable immersion
            Wow, talk about an unfortunate choice of labels. I realise that there's some explanation after which it'll be confirmed that first impressions are deceiving, but still, the first impressions from just seeing the labels are terrible: one sounds like an "Five successes I shot you! - No you did not! - Hrmph, okay." kind of resolution-overriding (and not necessarily just for physical conflicts), the other sounds like a thing that includes 'break immersion' as one of the things it directly does.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Damian May View Post
              Eh, stuff like the X-card, pre-game briefings and signed contracts to play is very, very necessary in Nordic LARP especially considering the very dark material that is used, blurring of IC and OOC consent and the insane depth of character immersion that is sought after in some Nordic LARP styles and cultures. In most LARPs around the world which at least in the UK, US and Oz tend to be much, much lighter and include tons of OOC interaction in-game time, not so much.....but as they are coming from Nordic LARP where its pretty damn essential to avoid trauma, alienation and attention from the authorities they would be focused that way.
              ...Yes?

              As for edgelord......well, a number of accounts do tend towards Swedracula not being quite so on top of things regarding consent in the past, hopefully he's learned from that.
              I know about one case, the infamous "locked a claustrophobic player into a cabinet (or something)", which I literally don't have any context for, so I'll reserve judgment. What I see is that they're taking this stuff very seriously and I don't think Martin could became the kind of "big name" in Nordic LARP if he wouldn't have done as such.
              Last edited by PMárk; 11-11-2017, 04:24 PM.


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              • #82
                Originally posted by vicky_molokh View Post
                Wow, talk about an unfortunate choice of labels. I realise that there's some explanation after which it'll be confirmed that first impressions are deceiving, but still, the first impressions from just seeing the labels are terrible: one sounds like an "Five successes I shot you! - No you did not! - Hrmph, okay." kind of resolution-overriding (and not necessarily just for physical conflicts), the other sounds like a thing that includes 'break immersion' as one of the things it directly does.
                They gave workshops prior and it was talked about. What I discerned from what I read, these kind of games are very, very rules light to the point that I'd risk to say they didn't have rules in the common tabletop and traditional LARP sense, but more like governing guideances (except for the mentioned stuff - those are quite particular). Mind, the goal is also entirely different as in creating the most satisfying story for the participants with the highest level of immersion and "bleed" as possible. Okay, those are somewhat the same goals as in traditional rpgs, but only at the surface. Nordic LARPs don't tend to do long-term campaigns and objective conflict-resolution isn't really a goal. Physical combat at CoT, for example, was essentially not governed by rules, but the two player negotiating the details and outcome and then acting out it to the extent both were comfortable with.

                Honestly, the whole thing is much more akin to improvisational theater than rpgs to me and I agree with you, it's not the kind of gaming and immersion I'm mostly interested in (and I'd agree too, the things you mentioned might actually break immersion for me, rather than not), but hey, a lot of people seems to like it and these games clearly could be appealing for non-traditional rpg-player type individuals (which, I'd say is a WoD tradition) and they can bring out high levels of immersion and involvement from the participants, so...

                Yeah, not really my cup of tea, but to be honest, it'd be fun to try it out, now and then and the quality WW is doing is convincing. The locale and customs of CoT and Enlightment in Blood, the open-city nature of Berlin, those are good stuff, to be sure. I also think that it is a more outside-audience and media friendly type of gaming than the traditional style, partly because of those things and the emphasis on acting, physicality and high emotions rather than rules-governed play. I'd say that it puts pretty little emphasis on the"game" aspect of rpgs and focuses on the roleplaying, so as I said, it's more like improv-acting to me, but I see how it could be fun for a pretty large audience.

                Disclaimer: I haven't attended any of the games and I never played a Nordic LARP and overall I have very little LARP experience. It's totally possible that I got things wrong, but that is what i discerned from reports and some reading.
                Last edited by PMárk; 11-11-2017, 04:29 PM.


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                • #83
                  Sorry to be part of the thread delay, but my problem with the whole consent-based resolution thing is that, as far as I am concerned, rules and mechanical resolutions exists (and exists in LARPs especially) when an agreement either cannot be reached, or an impartial arbiter (the random chance on dice rolls) needs to be invoked. If two players and their characters are in a proper conflict, then it should be obvious that at least sometimes, no agreement can be reached, because well, d'uh, its called conflict for a reason.

                  Even improv acting tends to have some guidelines apart from character descriptions.

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                  • #84
                    Mind, I don't read the rules from any of the games, just some reviews and some stuff about Nordic LARP in general. They might had a bit more concrete guidelines and basic rules, but I think they were not prominent.

                    What I see is that this type of LARP basically almost entirely lacks the competitive aspect. Also, as I wrote, Nordic LARP is mostly about high-profile one-shots, with, at least partially pre-generated characters. The goal is just weaving an emotionally fulfilling story, in conjunction with your fellow players and immersing yourself into the situation (which is helped by the high-end locales, props, etc.). You just don't really pursue personal character goals, at the other players' expense, on your own. There is no "surprise assasinations" as such and things like that.

                    That's why I'm saying it's pretty far from how I define rpgs, but I'm not saying it's not a hell of fun.


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                    • #85
                      Sounds more like an elaborate dinner party than a game, but that isn't necessarily bad.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                        Sounds more like an elaborate dinner party than a game, but that isn't necessarily bad.
                        Heh, kinda, as I see it!

                        Again, I didn't attend a game like that so far, but plainly, it's more "collaborative storytelling with awesome props" than "role-playing-game" to me but yeah, that's totally not a bad thing. It's just something different and preferences vary.

                        I think it's somewhat like traditional LARP games, like MET are like traditional rpgs and Nordic LARP is more like the farther end of narrative tabletop rpgs. Close enough general concept (playing characters etc.), but totally different styles and focus.
                        Last edited by PMárk; 11-15-2017, 09:28 PM.


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                        • #87
                          The main reason I'm not a fan of modern RPG safety techniques is that they take up space in the rulebook that could be spent on other things.

                          I could list others, but the bottom line is that my group never has used them, never will use them, and pretty much any other content would see more mileage at our (virtual) table.


                          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                            The main reason I'm not a fan of modern RPG safety techniques is that they take up space in the rulebook that could be spent on other things.

                            I could list others, but the bottom line is that my group never has used them, never will use them, and pretty much any other content would see more mileage at our (virtual) table.
                            That's why I'm saying putting them in the corebooks is okay, if we contain it to the very basics, but elaborating the thing, I believe specified products are better for that for individuals and groups who'd like to use them. In a Vampire corebook, for example, I'd want it to concrete on how to storytell the Vampire specific stuff well and horror, morality, etc. Safety is/could be a part of that, so put in the basics about it.


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