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Can Stygian Steel be brought to the Skinlands?

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  • Can Stygian Steel be brought to the Skinlands?

    I honestly don’t have a strong Wraith-Fu, but can things from the Low Umbra be brought physically into the Skinlands? Specifically, can Stygian Steel be brought into the Skinlands?

  • #2
    Who is doing it?

    Probably if Mage is involved Or a Shadow Strider.... Or maybe even a Sluagh....

    Probably the only game it wouldn't happen in is Wraith. I mean, how? What Arcanoi would one even alloy? Old school Inhabit and Embody?

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    • #3
      Embody. Bring yourself, and bring your things. If the wraith manifests in the Skinlands, their items do to. The manifestation is dependent upon the wraith though. Drop the sword, and watch it fall back instantly through the Shroud. No relic guns shoot bullets, no arrows from ancient bows. Toss that blade from one hand to the other and watch it vanish.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Old Rusty Pipe View Post
        Embody. Bring yourself, and bring your things. If the wraith manifests in the Skinlands, their items do to. The manifestation is dependent upon the wraith though. Drop the sword, and watch it fall back instantly through the Shroud. No relic guns shoot bullets, no arrows from ancient bows. Toss that blade from one hand to the other and watch it vanish.

        Guess you need to go the Freddy Krueger route and wear your weapon then.

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        • #5
          Seems like a very very VERY generous reading of Materialize that goes far beyond the implications of the RAW and the descriptions of what is possible and what is not in previous levels. (E.g. nothing about taking Relics along with). Unless your character had Stygian steel weapons when they were living. Which makes the whole thing pretty tautalogical.

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          • #6
            I had this very same question back in 1999. During a Q&A with the Dead Guy, that was pretty much how it was laid out working as far as Embody was concerned. The books itself are rather fuzzy from what I recall. They are all in a different country at the moment. I've always ran it that way, and it never really caused any issues. Alternatively, I could see this being developed as an Alternate Art for Embody. A Life-in-Death variation with additional Pathos or WIllpower costs.

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            • #7
              They aren't fuzzy (though they are crippling fuzzy) so much as pointing exactly the opposite way. It's REALLY hard to Embody. It's almost a useless power the time is so brief until 4 and 5 dots. Every time it mentions what appears it only describes the effects on Corpus and, in fact, states that too much modification away from the basic form makes the power useless at 4 dots. (So, no Beetlejuice Moliate moments.) Whether that problem is limitation is lifted for 5 dots is an open question, but, if the power is only really about projecting Corpus with greater and greater degrees of efficacy then bringing over Relics is not encompassed. Like I said, this would be a very powerful alloyed Arcanos, probably with Inhabit.or maybe Alchemy.

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              • #8
                A little late into the thread, but my two oboli: I've always ran that whatever items the wraith has on their person crosses over with them when they use Embody. Stygian steel sword - Embodies with the wraith. Relic/Artifact tank - not so much (but it would be cool). Some of chapter fiction in Doomslayers kinda supports this, but we all know how the fiction can be...


                This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                ").

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nazfool View Post
                  A little late into the thread, but my two oboli: I've always ran that whatever items the wraith has on their person crosses over with them when they use Embody. Stygian steel sword - Embodies with the wraith. Relic/Artifact tank - not so much (but it would be cool). Some of chapter fiction in Doomslayers kinda supports this, but we all know how the fiction can be...
                  Why would the Stygian steel sword Embody with the Wraith? Why would ANYTHING Relic-like Embody with the Wraith? Aside from some dubious fiction (and Wraith's fiction follows Wraith's rules more poorly than most), where is there ANY indication that you can bring something across with you? Even Risen have to work with a Fetter to create Conduit and that's using massive amounts of power to actually just insert a wraith back into its body. Are you allowing all said wraith's Relics to glom on and materialize in the Skinlands?

                  Embody is pretty much about allowing Corpus or the actions of Corpus to manifest in the Skinlands. It doesn't even indicate that the wraith ever leaves the Shadowlands. They are just increasingly present in a more and more tangible fashion in the Skinlands as well. It seems like the most logical fashion this would work is that, while using Embody 5 the wraith would be holding out his Stygian steel sword in the Shadowlands, while in the Skinlands, they would be tangibly present, but holding out nothing that a living person could see. Kind of like a Changeling with a purely chimerical sword.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                    Why would the Stygian steel sword Embody with the Wraith? Why would ANYTHING Relic-like Embody with the Wraith? Aside from some dubious fiction (and Wraith's fiction follows Wraith's rules more poorly than most), where is there ANY indication that you can bring something across with you? Even Risen have to work with a Fetter to create Conduit and that's using massive amounts of power to actually just insert a wraith back into its body. Are you allowing all said wraith's Relics to glom on and materialize in the Skinlands?

                    Embody is pretty much about allowing Corpus or the actions of Corpus to manifest in the Skinlands. It doesn't even indicate that the wraith ever leaves the Shadowlands. They are just increasingly present in a more and more tangible fashion in the Skinlands as well. It seems like the most logical fashion this would work is that, while using Embody 5 the wraith would be holding out his Stygian steel sword in the Shadowlands, while in the Skinlands, they would be tangibly present, but holding out nothing that a living person could see. Kind of like a Changeling with a purely chimerical sword.
                    You do you, Boo Boo.


                    This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                    (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                    ").

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                    • #11
                      An Embodied wraith has completely left the Shadowlands and resides solely in the Skinlands. A detailed description is listed under the States of Corpus from 2nd edition; specifically Materialized. I don't have my book ATM, so I don't know the page number.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nazfool View Post

                        You do you, Boo Boo.
                        Me do rules. Golden Rule is good. Rules is common ground. Common ground is good.

                        Answer to OP in rules... You can't under any reasonable interpretation of the rules that does not fall back on the Golden Rule as a handwaving fiat.

                        You want wraiths grabbing their Relics and coming over using Embody 5 or even 4, or even for the brief shining moments of 3, the rules bend away from that (at a HARD angle), but if it seems cool, go for it. Embody in RAW is pretty weak and useless as is. I mean, personally, not being able to use Embody 4 with heavy Moliation kinda sucks. Particularly since it negates the "Beetlejuice" trope and allowing Moliated wraiths to affect the Skinlands doesn't really make Embody any more useful than Phantasm, much less Inhabit or Puppetry, or even Keening with regards to fucking with the Skinlands. Having an alloyed Arcanos with Inhabit that allows for taking Relics over as well seems like a way to handle the situation without much grief.

                        Hells, I once started created a new Arcanos, Replivn, that was all about grabbing out objects out of the turmoil of the Tempest that at high levels did allow for gacking an object into the Skinlands into the Shadowlands that was effectively "create insta-Relic". It would be a pretty simple, though rather costly, adjustment to have things go the other way as a part of that power.

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                        • #13
                          In all seriousness Ajax , where in RAW (in this case, Second Edition) does it explicitly state that these items don't cross the Shroud with you?
                          I've always interpreted Embody (especially level 4) as the wraith forcing his ectoplasmic body into the Skindlands...for a little bit.



                          This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                          (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                          ").

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nazfool View Post
                            In all seriousness Ajax , where in RAW (in this case, Second Edition) does it explicitly state that these items don't cross the Shroud with you?
                            I've always interpreted Embody (especially level 4) as the wraith forcing his ectoplasmic body into the Skindlands...for a little bit.
                            It's where the absence makes the difference. RAW never anywhere says that it does. You can't just assume something that HUGE in. It goes out of it's way to restrict the ability of Corpus to interact with the Skinlands. It goes against pretty much every other aspect of the relationship between the Shadowlands and the Skinlands where getting out of the Underworld is so hard it's pretty much impossible except in fleeting, sad ways. The nature of becoming a Risen argues against it pretty damn hard. If Relics were able to cross the Shroud, that's the place where it would happen, since that's the place where it emphatically DOES happen. It's effectively going against the curve of Entropy in the WW universe as a whole and Wraith in particular.

                            A Wraith is already IN the Skinlands. That's the whole reason of the Rule of Ouch. The Shadowlands are more like Penumbra not Umbra, only actually less so.. Embody not so much forcing Corpus into the Skinlands as it's making Corpus have the ability to interact with Skinlands, since the Wraith is already there. If Embody actually moved the wraith into the Skinlands, that would have to get mentioned as it would be a BIG DEAL. There's nothing indicating a wraith using Embody is partially, mostly or even completely immune to Shadowlands actions while Embodied. What happens if someone in the Shadowlands stabs a wraith using Embody 4 or 5 with a Stygian steel sword? It probably hurts them just like normal. Embody sucks in this way, because their Corpus is also vulnerable to Skinlands actions over and above the Rule of Ouch as well. So an Embodied wraith can get it from both sides (which is touched on).

                            If Embody were that holistic and did what you are saying it does, then there would be the Reverse Rule of Ouch, where an Embodied wraith would be able to walk through Shadowlands walls at the cost of a Corpus (effectively becoming the Kitty Pryde of the Shadowlands). They might even use low levels of Embody to do things like reach into boxes in the Shadowlands and knock things out of them.... It would be an awesome way to avoid your Shadowlands enemies as well as a get out of jail free card. You could use Embody 4 or 5 and they wouldn't be able to touch you or interact with you as an "anti-wraith" of sorts.

                            Now, it doesn't say you CAN'T do those things with Embody, but if a player tried to shoehorn all that in because of the absence anything that says "No", I would cry shenanigans. Then Embody just became TOO powerful.

                            Similarly, assuming in Relic transferal, particularly with the "drop it and leave it" codicil is a big enough deal it would need to be mentioned, in the same way that "too much Moliation" is called out in Embody 4.

                            I dunno, there are possibilities for an easy-ish fix. Adding in an ability to take a Relic you can carry in both hands, and no larger, with you for Embody 5 would add to the cost in some way (definitely WP, but also some combo of Corpus, Pathos and/or Angst), and, if the wraith drops it, the lack of interaction causes it to "snap back" across the Shroud and hit the ground in the Shadowlands, not the Skinlands. But that seems too permissive, because Stygian steel seems like it would be bad in Stormbringer/morganti weapons kind of ways in the Skinlands. A weapon with constituent elements of pure entropy seems just plain bad (badass?).

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                              A Wraith is already IN the Skinlands. That's the whole reason of the Rule of Ouch. The Shadowlands are more like Penumbra not Umbra, only actually less so.. Embody not so much forcing Corpus into the Skinlands as it's making Corpus have the ability to interact with Skinlands, since the Wraith is already there. If Embody actually moved the wraith into the Skinlands, that would have to get mentioned as it would be a BIG DEAL. There's nothing indicating a wraith using Embody is partially, mostly or even completely immune to Shadowlands actions while Embodied. What happens if someone in the Shadowlands stabs a wraith using Embody 4 or 5 with a Stygian steel sword? It probably hurts them just like normal. Embody sucks in this way, because their Corpus is also vulnerable to Skinlands actions over and above the Rule of Ouch as well. So an Embodied wraith can get it from both sides (which is touched on).

                              If Embody were that holistic and did what you are saying it does, then there would be the Reverse Rule of Ouch, where an Embodied wraith would be able to walk through Shadowlands walls at the cost of a Corpus (effectively becoming the Kitty Pryde of the Shadowlands). They might even use low levels of Embody to do things like reach into boxes in the Shadowlands and knock things out of them.... It would be an awesome way to avoid your Shadowlands enemies as well as a get out of jail free card. You could use Embody 4 or 5 and they wouldn't be able to touch you or interact with you as an "anti-wraith" of sorts.
                              A wraith is most assuredly NOT in the Skinlands. The Shadowlands are definitely located firmly with the Lower Umbra. The Penunmbra is where mediums enter that allow them to see wraiths. The 5pt merit from Mediums explicitly calls out that they can see wraiths, and with great effort sometimes within the Shadowlands themselves. If you want to know how a non-Embodied wraith interacts when it is directly in the Skinlands, check out Shroud-Rending from Wraith: The Great War.

                              Embody already calls out that you enter the Skinlands. Read the Materialized section under State of Corpus. The Embody description itself attributes their Arcanos marking from repeated trips through the Shroud. There is no reverse Rule of Ouch, because Shadowland objects don't block Skinland movements. Embody does one thing: it manifests the wraith fully in the Skinlands with all of the benefits and drawbacks that confers.

                              As far as bringing relics or artifacts, you won't find it called out explicitly in the books. I can cite some of the in-book fiction where it does happen, but no hard rules. I think its thematically appropriate, but to each their own.

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