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Can Stygian Steel be brought to the Skinlands?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Old Rusty Pipe View Post

    A wraith is most assuredly NOT in the Skinlands. The Shadowlands are definitely located firmly with the Lower Umbra. The Penunmbra is where mediums enter that allow them to see wraiths. The 5pt merit from Mediums explicitly calls out that they can see wraiths, and with great effort sometimes within the Shadowlands themselves. If you want to know how a non-Embodied wraith interacts when it is directly in the Skinlands, check out Shroud-Rending from Wraith: The Great War.

    Embody already calls out that you enter the Skinlands. Read the Materialized section under State of Corpus. The Embody description itself attributes their Arcanos marking from repeated trips through the Shroud. There is no reverse Rule of Ouch, because Shadowland objects don't block Skinland movements. Embody does one thing: it manifests the wraith fully in the Skinlands with all of the benefits and drawbacks that confers.

    As far as bringing relics or artifacts, you won't find it called out explicitly in the books. I can cite some of the in-book fiction where it does happen, but no hard rules. I think its thematically appropriate, but to each their own.
    No. They are in the Skinlands AND the Shadowlands because those two places are inextriciably intertwined. Because a wraith can't walk through a wall without spending a Corpus. The wall is THERE to the wraith. The wall in the SKINLANDS is there to the wraith. The Skinlands and the Shadowlands are two sides of the same thing. It's like the same room as you are sitting in right now under a black light. But with ghosts and ghost stuff. In fact, the Skinlands reality is the dominant one with the "Shadowlands" as a thin layer over and through it, since Skinlands folks don't have to Rule of Ouch their way through wraith walls, relics, or, well, wraiths....

    It's not even as divided as Stranger Things Earth and the Upside Down. They are slightly more separated than the "real world" for Changelings and the "real world" with chimera in it. The Penumbra is actually more distant as there is no indication that Garou have to dodge real world cars and people walking down the street when in the Penumbra.

    Where in Embody doest it state that the wraith is no longer in the Shadowlands and cannot be affected by the denizens of the Shadowlands and only by Skinlands (unless the Shadowland side folks are using Arcanoi that affect the other side of the Shroud)? Or where does it say that only wraiths using Emdoy 4 or 5 are effectively able to attack other wraiths using Embody 4 or 5? If that's not the case, if the wraiths using Embody are STILL in the Shadowlands and just using Arcanoi to sort of "poke into" the Skinlands, like a hand on the other side of a sheet (or Shroud?)

    It's great to say that things are just a matter of taste. Of course they are. But there is a reason for having rules. Or else all the issues pertaining to "let's play pretend" start to rear their heads. So, if there is something in play that actually MATTERS and will substantially change the game by execution of an element that is not present and is just being interpolated, then it's important to look at the body of the material and try to suss out the way that makes the most sense in line with the RAW.

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    • #17
      Ajax, check out Second Edition, page 232, under Corpus States.
      Mercurial, you've heard two different interpretations. Go with what works at your table.


      This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
      (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ajax View Post


        A Wraith is already IN the Skinlands.
        I can see how one could argue that, but Orpheus explains that the relic nuke blast (and events associated with it, such as Persephone trying to escape the blast) forced some wraith into the Skinlands. These Skinland wraiths were still invisible, but they were no longer in the Shadowlands--in fact, getting back to the Shadowlands became difficult due to the Stormwall. Seems to be to be a solid argument for the Shadowlands being another "place"--it just happens to be one that is superimposed over the Skinlands.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Callishka View Post

          I can see how one could argue that, but Orpheus explains that the relic nuke blast (and events associated with it, such as Persephone trying to escape the blast) forced some wraith into the Skinlands. These Skinland wraiths were still invisible, but they were no longer in the Shadowlands--in fact, getting back to the Shadowlands became difficult due to the Stormwall. Seems to be to be a solid argument for the Shadowlands being another "place"--it just happens to be one that is superimposed over the Skinlands.
          Exactly. They are two sides of the same coin. The Tempest, the Far Shores, etc. aren't. The Shadowlands are the Penumbra of the Dark Umbra. They are contiguous and congruent with the Skinlands. That's why walls in the Skinlands affect Wraiths in the Shadowlands. And people. And bushes. And water. Etc. Etc. Etc. The wraiths are IN the Skinlands as much as they are in the Shadowlands.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ajax View Post

            Exactly. They are two sides of the same coin. The Tempest, the Far Shores, etc. aren't. The Shadowlands are the Penumbra of the Dark Umbra. They are contiguous and congruent with the Skinlands. That's why walls in the Skinlands affect Wraiths in the Shadowlands. And people. And bushes. And water. Etc. Etc. Etc. The wraiths are IN the Skinlands as much as they are in the Shadowlands.
            I believe you sidestepped my point, or I wasn't clear, but I don't think you've addressed it. Orpheus specifically mentions Wraiths entering the Skinlands by force, so that they end up on the Skinlands side, which is distinct from being on the Shadowlands side.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Callishka View Post

              I believe you sidestepped my point, or I wasn't clear, but I don't think you've addressed it. Orpheus specifically mentions Wraiths entering the Skinlands by force, so that they end up on the Skinlands side, which is distinct from being on the Shadowlands side.
              In Orpheus the cosmology is explicitly different. The Shadowlands and the Tempest with it's associated bits (the Far Shores, the Dark Kingdoms proper - as in the parts that aren't reflections of Skinlands geography, etc.) do not have the same relation to the Skinlands that they do in Wraith. ALL wraiths in the first books are effectively in the Skinlands and there aren't Shadowlands in the sense of the Shadowlands exist in Wraith. The universe works more like it does in Chronicles of Darkness with an immaterial ectoplasmic state in the world that is different from being in the various Penumbrae in both the Chronicles cosmology and the Penumbras of the various cosmologies of the Word of Darkness (except, possibly, Vampired using Auspex).

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                Exactly. They are two sides of the same coin. The Tempest, the Far Shores, etc. aren't. The Shadowlands are the Penumbra of the Dark Umbra. They are contiguous and congruent with the Skinlands. That's why walls in the Skinlands affect Wraiths in the Shadowlands. And people. And bushes. And water. Etc. Etc. Etc. The wraiths are IN the Skinlands as much as they are in the Shadowlands.
                That, or what's there for the Wraiths is the spiritual reflection of those walls. Or the vibrancy of the living world is powerful enough that it imprints itself onto the Shadowlands. Really, there are any number of ways to explain why Wraiths are restricted by the Skinlands.


                Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                • #23
                  Or not. It's that the walls are THERE. And they can't walk through them. Or the people. Or the water. Or ANYTHING.

                  You're creating a new concept to back up your premise which isn't really based on anything present in the game. That "vibrancy" is already handled under Lifesight and there's pretty much 0 there that backs up a link between said "vibrancy" and the existence of the Rule of Ouch. Sure you CAN come up with any number of ways to explain Wraiths and the Shadowlands, but that doesn't mean you're doing anything other than mental gymnastics. Why does rain fall? "Because the clouds are sad and lonely in the sky so they send their babies to kiss the ground" is one of any number of reasons I could come up with. That doesn't make it a good explanation. Particularly when we have lots and lots of other evidence backing up the most likely reasoning (gravity and fluid dynamics and buoyancy and lift). Like the reason why wraiths can't walk through walls vis-a-vis the rest of the rules and explanations in the Wraith rules.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                    Or not. It's that the walls are THERE. And they can't walk through them. Or the people. Or the water. Or ANYTHING.

                    You're creating a new concept to back up your premise which isn't really based on anything present in the game. That "vibrancy" is already handled under Lifesight and there's pretty much 0 there that backs up a link between said "vibrancy" and the existence of the Rule of Ouch. Sure you CAN come up with any number of ways to explain Wraiths and the Shadowlands, but that doesn't mean you're doing anything other than mental gymnastics. Why does rain fall? "Because the clouds are sad and lonely in the sky so they send their babies to kiss the ground" is one of any number of reasons I could come up with. That doesn't make it a good explanation. Particularly when we have lots and lots of other evidence backing up the most likely reasoning (gravity and fluid dynamics and buoyancy and lift). Like the reason why wraiths can't walk through walls vis-a-vis the rest of the rules and explanations in the Wraith rules.
                    What premise? You are the one insisting on a specific explanation to something that isn't fully defined. And while your explanation is perfectly fine as a way of running the game, I wouldn't say it quite matches what we see in Wraith. After all, we know that Shadowlands reflections of buildings are not one for one matches to their Skinlands counterparts. Depending on the memories or feelings associated with them they can often appear larger or smaller, stronger or more rundown, etc.

                    Also, fluid dynamics doesn't hold across the Shroud because, as you say, water is solid to Wraiths unless they go incorporeal or have a special merit. There are also multiple places where the gravity of the Underworld is attributed to the pull of Oblivion rather than any kind of. Really the picture we get of the Underworld is that any apparent similarities to the real world are only superficial.


                    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

                      What premise? You are the one insisting on a specific explanation to something that isn't fully defined. And while your explanation is perfectly fine as a way of running the g ame, I wouldn't say it quite matches what we see in Wraith. After all, we know that Shadowlands reflections of buildings are not one for one matches to their Skinlands counterparts. Depending on the memories or feelings associated with them they can often appear larger or smaller, stronger or more rundown, etc.

                      Also, fluid dynamics doesn't hold across the Shroud because, as you say, water is solid to Wraiths unless they go incorporeal or have a special merit. There are also multiple places where the gravity of the Underworld is attributed to the pull of Oblivion rather than any kind of. Really the picture we get of the Underworld is that any apparent similarities to the real world are only superficial.
                      Actually, the Rule of Ouch ABSOLUTELY says the buildings and people and water and everything else that could disrupt the Corpus of a wraith is an EXACT match in position to its Skinlands "counterpart". And vice versa. Every wraith in the Shadowlands is in EXACTLY the same place in the Skinlands. It's a one for one correspondence. The Shadowlands/Shroud doesn't "move Skinlands things around" and generate weird off-kilter spatial correspondences. That's what Phantasm is for. That's why people can walk into/through wraiths and cost them a Corpus. The plasm is disrupted by the matter. Water, though fluid is matter. That's why it's solid. Just like glass in the real world. It's a fluid but good luck dipping your finger into it. Unlike glass, because of that exact correspondence thing, the solid water is STILL fluid. A wraith walking on rough water is like a person walking in a bouncy house but, if they fall, the floor isn't soft, it's as hard as concrete. Good thing wraiths are made of ephemeral but fairly tough stuff.

                      Oblivion is not "down". It's up because the Tempest is in/above the sky. It's at right angles to there and here along the axis of imaginary numbers, since a wraith with Outrage could blast out a hole in Skinlands dirt and not make a Nihil. Based on that premise, wraiths should be falling all over the place as the balance of the pull varies. Perhaps with the strength of their Shadow being the equivalent to their mass.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                        Actually, the Rule of Ouch ABSOLUTELY says the buildings and people and water and everything else that could disrupt the Corpus of a wraith is an EXACT match in position to its Skinlands "counterpart". And vice versa. Every wraith in the Shadowlands is in EXACTLY the same place in the Skinlands. It's a one for one correspondence. The Shadowlands/Shroud doesn't "move Skinlands things around" and generate weird off-kilter spatial correspondences. That's what Phantasm is for. That's why people can walk into/through wraiths and cost them a Corpus. The plasm is disrupted by the matter. Water, though fluid is matter. That's why it's solid. Just like glass in the real world. It's a fluid but good luck dipping your finger into it. Unlike glass, because of that exact correspondence thing, the solid water is STILL fluid. A wraith walking on rough water is like a person walking in a bouncy house but, if they fall, the floor isn't soft, it's as hard as concrete. Good thing wraiths are made of ephemeral but fairly tough stuff.

                        Oblivion is not "down". It's up because the Tempest is in/above the sky. It's at right angles to there and here along the axis of imaginary numbers, since a wraith with Outrage could blast out a hole in Skinlands dirt and not make a Nihil. Based on that premise, wraiths should be falling all over the place as the balance of the pull varies. Perhaps with the strength of their Shadow being the equivalent to their mass.
                        Is this about to head into one of those conversations where we argue which parts of the books we listen to and which parts we ignore? Because that way lies madness.

                        Edit: Also, because it is bothering me: The whole 'glass is a liquid' thing is largely an urban legend. There are some technical elements that sometimes keep it from being called a solid but it isn't a liquid and it doesn't flow at room temperature.
                        Last edited by Ramnesis; 11-29-2017, 03:48 PM.


                        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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