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The Grand Plan of Stygia - Wraith Demography

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  • The Grand Plan of Stygia - Wraith Demography

    "Rumor has it that a certain Deathlord in Stygia has been acquiring wraiths with computer knowledge and has them working away deep within the bowels of Stygia. They are working side by side with powerful Artificers to create a great and horrible machine - a giant computer. A soul counter capable of keeping track of all the souls in Stygia and the Shadowlands...

    But this is just a rumor. Afterall, the amount of pathos needed to power such a device would be incredible, and the number of souls that would have to be smelted to build it would be inconceivable. No Deathlord is power-mad enough to pay that kind of price... We hope."
    - Wraith Player's Guide, p 146.

    It's that time again... Posts to follow as I crunch the numbers. Time for a teaser.


    Known Only and NoPop mean that this lists only the explicit causes of death for individually numerated Wraiths, not those that can be reasonably extrapolated or where the entry refers to thousands/millions of dead at once. That'll follow later.

  • #2
    Unlike the other game lines, Wraith - though still very sparsely populated in many ways compared to the living world - deals with very big numbers. I'm going to post a few to explain how I use them in the 'W/Pop' graphs coming soon. I'll be putting out 'low' 'med' and 'high' variants - what they say on the tin, really. The medium range, unless the source otherwise specified, will usually be the median.

    Thousands of captive Risen in Haiti's Artibonite Valley: Thousands will usually be interpreted as referring to a minimum population of 2,000 except where the narrator or source is unreliable. They will usually not be taken to exceed 19,000 at an absolute limit and I will usually cap them at 9,000 for the high end figure. So here, the figures are 2,000, 5,000 and 9,000.
    NecAtl: Hundreds of unnamed drones: Same rationale. Low end 200 high end 1000 median 500.
    200,000+ wraiths in Auschwitz: These are... Trickier. We know not every death spawns a Wraith, but that the Holocaust produced more than average by far - and also lost a great many to nihils and predation. For figures like these, I will use percentage values, ranging from 100% spawning as a wraith/drone - as happened at Babi Yar - to a low end of 10% (double or higher the standard rate), with a median figure of 25% (which puts us in the ballpark of the 200,000 minimum established in the book).
    Jonestown, the Sinking of Ys, and the 1863 Draft Riots: These form the final categories, where all we know is they made enough wraiths to be notable. I propose a similar approach to that above, fixing the lower end at between 10 and 15% of the dead, the middle at 25 - 30%, and the upper end at - depending on event (Jonestown higher than Garibaldi's march, etc) 75 - 100%.Where casualty information is unavailable in any detail, an appropriate arbitrary figure will be used - e.g. for mythical cities like Ys, we will assign 1000 to 5000 'base population'.
    Events not mentioned in the books as triggering a large number of new wraiths will not receive the same treatment, as the project is intended to remain fairly faithful to what is presented in the books proper, and where it extrapolates, to extrapolate only from an evidentiary basis.

    Comment


    • #3
      Cheering you on!

      Comment


      • #4
        Nice graph. Where do those numbers come from? Hells, where do those categories come from and why them? If it's self-generated, why don't the categories match those of the Deathmarks/Legions? How does that even bear out?

        There are a LOT of ground rules that need to be laid out before these become workable. And some of them are going to be very hard to deduce, like the number of dead people that end up in the Shadowlands at all vs. just "poofing" to unknowable destinations. Then the % of the remaining that become Specters immediately (which can vary based on the situation at hand. Typical peaceful status quo vs. say the sacking of a city followed by some genocide). Then the % of the remainder that become Drones instead of Wraiths. That might be able to be inferred from WP. It seems likely, based on the high base WP for wraiths that only them most willful become Wraiths, so the remainder become Drones? (Which would mean that there would be a LOT more Drones to deal with than is described). That's the baseline "reproduction" on a recurring basis. Not the populations, just the effective number of "births". To factor population, you will need to add that up over time and figure out what the attrition rate is, which will probably be similar to the demographic profile of an undeveloped nation, meaning LOTS of attrition early on, then quickly and later gradually dropping off over time, giving a general triangular profile.

        THEN it becomes salient to try to divide it up by causes of death. Which results in some objective results with Deathmarks being a thing. So there is something that makes a death from disease different from a death from old age, when many old age deaths are the result of things that get labels like "heart disease". (So, what's the difference? Something like wear and tear vs. introduction of hostile biological elements? But doesn't cancer count as disease and that doesn't have to have an extrinsic cause at all... And so on...) But the baseline population matters a lot. If a lot of that massive Disease line is the result of infant mortality.... It's an important question if so, as the Shadowlands doesn't seem to full of crying babies and large numbers of toddlers and preschool aged children's ghosts. In which case, depending on what "disease" means and who is dying from said "disease" and ending up as wraiths might change that amount a great deal.

        And that's just to start.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ajax View Post
          Nice graph. Where do those numbers come from? Hells, where do those categories come from and why them? If it's self-generated, why don't the categories match those of the Deathmarks/Legions? How does that even bear out?
          The usual place - a thorough read of the game line, noting down each NPC and any salient details. The categories come from the most frequent causes of death among unique NPCs rather than from Legions (in part because many non-Legion wraiths are represented), which have a different but somewhat similar spread in their own right. I was less concerned with 'what legion does this death belong to' than 'what was the means/tool/circumstance', which only emerges at finer levels of granularity - e.g. the category of deaths that occurred post-rape or at the hands of a family member.

          There are a LOT of ground rules that need to be laid out before these become workable. And some of them are going to be very hard to deduce, like the number of dead people that end up in the Shadowlands at all vs. just "poofing" to unknowable destinations.
          Oh yeah, that's always difficult. Fortunately we do have a baseline figure - less than 1 in 20 (so below 5% but not below 1%) in the relatively peaceful, disease-free long-lived realm of modern day London that we can adopt as a minimum end and then use the examples of wraiths created by certain incidents (the battle of Verdun (though it in fact produced more wraiths than real people died there), Burning Kansas, etc) to establish rough proportions. It's all very speculative, and about the limit of where I'm willing to push away from the evidentiary basis.

          Then the % of the remaining that become Specters immediately (which can vary based on the situation at hand. Typical peaceful status quo vs. say the sacking of a city followed by some genocide). Then the % of the remainder that become Drones instead of Wraiths. That might be able to be inferred from WP. It seems likely, based on the high base WP for wraiths that only them most willful become Wraiths, so the remainder become Drones? (Which would mean that there would be a LOT more Drones to deal with than is described). That's the baseline "reproduction" on a recurring basis. Not the populations, just the effective number of "births". To factor population, you will need to add that up over time and figure out what the attrition rate is, which will probably be similar to the demographic profile of an undeveloped nation, meaning LOTS of attrition early on, then quickly and later gradually dropping off over time, giving a general triangular profile.
          Unfortunately, all of these are very difficult to determine and probably beyond what can actually be determined from the available data.

          THEN it becomes salient to try to divide it up by causes of death. Which results in some objective results with Deathmarks being a thing. So there is something that makes a death from disease different from a death from old age, when many old age deaths are the result of things that get labels like "heart disease". (So, what's the difference? Something like wear and tear vs. introduction of hostile biological elements? But doesn't cancer count as disease and that doesn't have to have an extrinsic cause at all... And so on...) But the baseline population matters a lot. If a lot of that massive Disease line is the result of infant mortality.... It's an important question if so, as the Shadowlands doesn't seem to full of crying babies and large numbers of toddlers and preschool aged children's ghosts. In which case, depending on what "disease" means and who is dying from said "disease" and ending up as wraiths might change that amount a great deal.

          And that's just to start.
          The finer level of granularity will address some of those concerns - e.g. what diseases are best represented. However, the reason I started with 'and here's the known causes of death, without extrapolation from legion membership or 'swamping' the data with the Mass Population entries' is because it's a quick, at a glance, of one thing only: The representation of causes of death among NPCs (primarily named ones) throughout Wraith's publishing period. It's not intended to be an ironclad guide, but an interesting look at the 'meta' of the game as published. The deeper analysis that has some use as a predictive tool will be coming in the following week or two.

          Comment


          • #6
            How old are the wraiths we have birth and death dates for? Most cluster between 20 and 60, with the strongest representation of 30-year olds - which seems reasonable. It's a long enough life to develop strong passions and fears, find goals, but not necessarily finish them off or even come close. The combination of some kind of strong will/personality and either a sufficiently terrible death or some kind of unresolved business (and/or sheer cussedness/bad luck) would also seem to favour people at that age. A quick note on the annotations: Simplified means I have collapsed the data into decades for readability, nopop means the large population entries - e.g. the 500,000 reaped at Verdun - have not been included even where age data for them is available, NO means No Orpheus, and ASS/NoASS means 'assumptions' - in this case, that where we have a birth date but not a death date the average age was 30-39 in line with the NoASS, and where only a decade was available, that it fell in the middle, e.g. 1875. Orpheus data is very limited on this particular score.

            Comment


            • #7
              Still and all, there are problems with basing your sample on just the wraiths presented. It's like trying to base your demographics on only the people who appear in histories. If, somewhere, where there was a source where the number of wraiths for a necropolis was explicitly stated vs. the number of wraiths specifically described, there might be some traction there, but it's offset by the fact that "currently important personages" are pretty much NEVER representative of the population as a whole.

              And, again, the causes of death aren't set by the Hierarchy's Legions, the Legions were created based on the objective reality of Deathmarks. The process of death itself seems to sort wraiths into specific groups. It doesn't matter if a wraith ends up in the Hierarchy, a Renegade, a Heretic or unaligned (an option which gets very little exploration in the material, but seems like it would be not only possible but potentially prevalent...), if they were good little soldiers, there is a Legion they WOULD belong to. It seems like it's ignoring a classification system that is inherent to the population at something as fundamental as biological sex (which is de jure among demographers when establishing actual population profiles).

              One could make the case that 30 is completely UNREASONABLE just as well. After all, the passions of youth cool as time wears people down. The number of passionate 30 year olds seems, overall, to be less than the number of willful teenagers and 20-somethings out there, whether they're rebels or have laser-sharp dedication to a goal. There are other reasons that the number may cluster around 30. I'd posit it probably has more to do with Fetters. Younger folks are more likely to have less investment in as many things as those accumulated by the most passionate % of the older population and, probably, they might have Fetters that are inherently more ephemeral. Also, probably, those strong Passions combined with less Fetters might make them more prone to becoming specters. But, again, the Specter attrition rate is a factor that is completely absent from the evidence and one of the most important factors in determining the current demographics of a necropolis. It's pretty much their equivalent of a "Death Rate". Along with the, almost certainly less important, rate of wraiths losing all their Fetters and having to move into Stygia proper.

              The whole exercise is going to take some examination of where demography of human populations and wraith populations are comparable. Birth rates and Death rates are about as basic as one can get for demography, but they mean something very different for wraiths. We've touched on the complexity of wraith "births" and trying to establish appropriate analogies above and very lightly touched on what would constitute Death Rates (e.g. removing wraiths from the population). But without a stab to approximate those, it seems like a doomed effort. And those don't seem like they can be derived from examining the most visible info in the wraith books,

              And the Verdun numbers pretty much have to be taken as hyperbole on the part of the in-world record keepers (historically, that's pretty damn common... inflated numbers of combatants, inflated numbers of casualties, conflating figures from a much larger field and attributing them to the event with the Big Name, etc. and the people keeping track of such things in Stygia are pretty much the people who did that sort of thing while alive).and/or by the writers of the material who didn't do as much research as you have.

              Also when toying with these ideas before, absent Wraith sources, I've reached out to Werewolf for an idea of the relative % of the population that have specific levels of Willpower. Based on the Delirium chart, only 37% of the population has Willpower of 5 or above. So that's only a bit more than 1/3/ So then the decision has to be made as to whether that 1 in 20 means wraiths that manifest (in which case you have a decent idea of how many dead souls go "POOF") or that means "animated bits of ectoplasm" that manifest, in which case, it's really only 37% of that 5% of total deaths that are wraiths proper, the remaining 63% are drones. It's much harder to do the math any other way due to the missing bits of information needed.

              To do the demographics of a necropolis, it would seem like what you need is the number of deaths by specific time period, break down the time periods into the 1/20 "peaceful" vs. 1/x for "non-peaceful" times and get your raw numbers from there. That's effectively the aggregate "birth" rate of wraiths. Then you need to figure out the "death rate" due to falling to Specterhood or moving to Stygia. There should be some other factors (like emigration/immigration), but it seems like those might be minor enough to ignore. Then you will get a decent idea of how many wraiths are currently around. Which seems like it will be A LOT. Particularly if the settlement is really old. (Some cut-offs might be needed. Otherwise places like Ankara in Turkey will be unbelievably overpopulated...) Oh, and you need to decide how the drones vs. wraiths thing will go. Honestly, the numbers are probably so big, that I would have no problem with just slicing off 2/3 of the death rate per era and saying those are drones who have either fallen or are currently tea cups.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                Still and all, there are problems with basing your sample on just the wraiths presented. It's like trying to base your demographics on only the people who appear in histories. If, somewhere, where there was a source where the number of wraiths for a necropolis was explicitly stated vs. the number of wraiths specifically described, there might be some traction there, but it's offset by the fact that "currently important personages" are pretty much NEVER representative of the population as a whole.
                Quite right. Unfortunately, the wraiths presented in the text are quite literally the only source of actual evidence and data we have. Any evidence-based approach will subsequently encounter these difficulties, regardless of exact methodologies. Though there is such a source, incidentally - Necropolis Atlanta.

                And, again, the causes of death aren't set by the Hierarchy's Legions, the Legions were created based on the objective reality of Deathmarks. The process of death itself seems to sort wraiths into specific groups. It doesn't matter if a wraith ends up in the Hierarchy, a Renegade, a Heretic or unaligned (an option which gets very little exploration in the material, but seems like it would be not only possible but potentially prevalent...), if they were good little soldiers, there is a Legion they WOULD belong to. It seems like it's ignoring a classification system that is inherent to the population at something as fundamental as biological sex (which is de jure among demographers when establishing actual population profiles).
                The classification I use is one that recognizes a fairly basic issue with going with the 'proper' deathmarks: It is exceptionally difficult to distinguish between cases of madness murder and regular murder, etcetera. You are free to assign the dead of each cause to their appropriate deathmark if you wish or have a suitable model for doing so. I would also suggest that describing the deathmarks as having an objective reality somewhat misses the mark, as their interpretation and significance has substantially changed during Stygian history and some are artificial, not natural.

                One could make the case that 30 is completely UNREASONABLE just as well. After all, the passions of youth cool as time wears people down. The number of passionate 30 year olds seems, overall, to be less than the number of willful teenagers and 20-somethings out there, whether they're rebels or have laser-sharp dedication to a goal. There are other reasons that the number may cluster around 30. I'd posit it probably has more to do with Fetters. Younger folks are more likely to have less investment in as many things as those accumulated by the most passionate % of the older population and, probably, they might have Fetters that are inherently more ephemeral. Also, probably, those strong Passions combined with less Fetters might make them more prone to becoming specters.
                Maybe so, but we'll see what else can be pulled out of the numbers.

                But, again, the Specter attrition rate is a factor that is completely absent from the evidence and one of the most important factors in determining the current demographics of a necropolis. It's pretty much their equivalent of a "Death Rate". Along with the, almost certainly less important, rate of wraiths losing all their Fetters and having to move into Stygia proper.
                Sure. But we can only work with what evidence there actually is, and I don't see what complaining about things beyond our available information is meant to accomplish. Perhaps there is some confusion as to what the Project is - it is not intended to be an objective, concrete, absolute 'this is how it is' statement. It's an examination of the available evidence with some extrapolations, nothing more.

                The whole exercise is going to take some examination of where demography of human populations and wraith populations are comparable. Birth rates and Death rates are about as basic as one can get for demography, but they mean something very different for wraiths. We've touched on the complexity of wraith "births" and trying to establish appropriate analogies above and very lightly touched on what would constitute Death Rates (e.g. removing wraiths from the population). But without a stab to approximate those, it seems like a doomed effort. And those don't seem like they can be derived from examining the most visible info in the wraith books,
                It is only a doomed effort if you desire to achieve an absolute model. I have no such desire, beyond establishing a 'bare minimum' 'absolute' model that reflects exactly what we see in the books.

                And the Verdun numbers pretty much have to be taken as hyperbole on the part of the in-world record keepers (historically, that's pretty damn common... inflated numbers of combatants, inflated numbers of casualties, conflating figures from a much larger field and attributing them to the event with the Big Name, etc. and the people keeping track of such things in Stygia are pretty much the people who did that sort of thing while alive).and/or by the writers of the material who didn't do as much research as you have.
                There are actually three possibilities. One, the source's text is poorly worded or the reader's comprehension poor and the 500,000 figure refers to the total dead reaped by the Grim by the end of Verdun, not just at Verdun. Two, the figure is hyperbole. Three, the World of Darkness is not our World and diverges in many ways, sometimes minor and sometimes major, including higher population ratios. This last one is canonical in many other areas, and I see no reason it cannot be so for WtGW:Verdun.

                Also when toying with these ideas before, absent Wraith sources, I've reached out to Werewolf for an idea of the relative % of the population that have specific levels of Willpower. Based on the Delirium chart, only 37% of the population has Willpower of 5 or above. So that's only a bit more than 1/3/ So then the decision has to be made as to whether that 1 in 20 means wraiths that manifest (in which case you have a decent idea of how many dead souls go "POOF") or that means "animated bits of ectoplasm" that manifest, in which case, it's really only 37% of that 5% of total deaths that are wraiths proper, the remaining 63% are drones. It's much harder to do the math any other way due to the missing bits of information needed.
                That's very interesting, but it also isn't what I'm trying to do here. I'll probably touch on it as one of the extrapolation entries later, but it really isn't the goal to set out concrete 'this % of the population will always become wraiths rather than drones...'

                To do the demographics of a necropolis, it would seem like what you need is the number of deaths by specific time period, break down the time periods into the 1/20 "peaceful" vs. 1/x for "non-peaceful" times and get your raw numbers from there.That's effectively the aggregate "birth" rate of wraiths. Then you need to figure out the "death rate" due to falling to Specterhood or moving to Stygia. There should be some other factors (like emigration/immigration), but it seems like those might be minor enough to ignore. Then you will get a decent idea of how many wraiths are currently around. Which seems like it will be A LOT. Particularly if the settlement is really old. (Some cut-offs might be needed. Otherwise places like Ankara in Turkey will be unbelievably overpopulated...) Oh, and you need to decide how the drones vs. wraiths thing will go. Honestly, the numbers are probably so big, that I would have no problem with just slicing off 2/3 of the death rate per era and saying those are drones who have either fallen or are currently tea cups.
                This is a fine approach, but it is ultimately unrelated to what this particular project is trying to achieve. Consider this project the 'jumping off' point for others to undertake further endeavours like that, which are not where my interest lie.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by loomer View Post

                  The classification I use is one that recognizes a fairly basic issue with going with the 'proper' deathmarks: It is exceptionally difficult to distinguish between cases of madness murder and regular murder, etcetera. You are free to assign the dead of each cause to their appropriate deathmark if you wish or have a suitable model for doing so. I would also suggest that describing the deathmarks as having an objective reality somewhat misses the mark, as their interpretation and significance has substantially changed during Stygian history and some are artificial, not natural.
                  Yeah, the deathmarks did not strike me as objective. Deathlords arguing over which lot of souls belongs to them drives a lot of Stygian politics, and none of that seems easily resolved by just looking at someone's deathmarks. The way I see it, deathmarks should be somewhat ambiguous, because causes of death themselves are ambiguous--something Book of Legions discusses explicitly and dramatizes with Deathlord squabbling. Only the deathmarks of Fate seem unambiguous, yet even there we don't have the luxury of objective truth; we merely have the fact that the deathlords do not reject claims that reapers working for the Lady of Fate make on souls.

                  And let's not forget the Beggar Lord, who made a name for himself skimming souls from the top of everyone else's piles, creating a Legion of loose ends and misfits--a symbolic reflection of "Death By [?]", as well as those whose deaths are a headache for the other Deathlords to haggle over. The Legion of Paupers is the biggest symbol of the subjective nature of deathmarks.
                  Last edited by Callishka; 12-31-2017, 07:28 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Then what is your actual objective?

                    It doesn't seem like analysis of the information of a very small and non-representative sample of a very nebulous and undefined population is going to produce many useful broad-based or applicable information. It's like doing a granular analysis of a Who's Who in "X" (this city or that profession or that subset of the population determined by some specific criteria) and trying to extrapolate not just information about "X" but about the whole society. Further undermined by having no actual knowledge of the construction of that society

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Callishka View Post

                      Yeah, the deathmarks did not strike me as objective. Deathlords arguing over which lot of souls belongs to them drives a lot of Stygian politics, and none of that seems easily resolved by just looking at someone's deathmarks. The way I see it, deathmarks should be somewhat ambiguous, because causes of death themselves are ambiguous--something Book of Legions discusses explicitly and dramatizes with Deathlord squabbling. Only the deathmarks of Fate seem unambiguous, yet even there we don't have the luxury of objective truth; we merely have the fact that the deathlords do not reject claims that reapers working for the Lady of Fate make on souls.

                      And let's not forget the Beggar Lord, who made a name for himself skimming souls from the top of everyone else's piles, creating a Legion of loose ends and misfits--a symbolic reflection of "Death By [?]", as well as those whose deaths are a headache for the other Deathlords to haggle over. The Legion of Paupers is the biggest symbol of the subjective nature of deathmarks.
                      And, yet, the smallest Legion, barring Fate? The Paupers are the place where the "questionable" factors go. It's where all the "Other" and "More than one of the above" are supposed to go. Even with skimming, it didn't get them all that much because, apparently, the Deathmarks are decisive enough that they are harder to scam than, say, cattle brands.

                      And those arguments don't actually mean the Deathmarks aren't determinative. It means that they aren't being paid attention to for reasons of political or economic gain. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of those Reaped into Legions who had the wrong Deathmarks ended up going to the forges, not inducted into the Legions and trained in Arcanoi.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What I've settled on for the population entries, unless anyone has a better model, is the tripartite system mentioned in my second post. Low places all events without certain figures but which received a mention of significance at 5% - as most are wars/battles/massacres this is higher than the london ratio, but not so far as to be unreasonable. Medium is at 20%, and high is at 50%. Some events further have a low end and a high end range - e.g. the ACW and the Draft Riots - where the potential death tolls were too variable or unreliable, or where the tone was that an old/unusual source was used (e.g. the Draft Riots created many new Grim, but only killed about 120 people. I believe that this may indicate that the intended source is in fact Herbert Asbury's 'history', which gives the figure of 2000 - far higher than reality, but part of a book more, uh, 'tonally consistent' with the oWoD.) Moving on...


                        What's our minimum rate of destruction, canonically? Well, depending on if you count Orpheus or not, it hovers around 8% not including Population entries. Wraiths, though they tend to go kaput over the years due to either suicide, destruction, or forging, have one of the lowest visible attrition rates of all the lines outside Changeling. Part of that is because it's a very difficult thing to decide on when to tag a wraith as destroyed due to the fact that most harrowings are not guaranteed fatalities, especially with no information beyond a name or affiliation for many of the wraiths in the dataset. Presumably the actual rate is much higher.

                        If you count Orpheus and apply it's definitely canonical rate of destruction, then it skyrockets to 92%, with nearly all the deaths falling into the 1999 - 2002 bracket. Grandmaw woke up and got hungry and, well, bye-bye wraiths.



                        Similarly, what's our ratio of spectres? For now, let's look at the NoPops, because I'm still plugging through those to figure out appropriate figures.


                        Despite spectres being a big part of the game, relatively few appear as anything but faceless hordes - often, unfortunately, in unquantifiable numbers which wind up skewing the results towards non-spectres. Even the bulk of these are unnamed or undetailed. I expect the pop figures to be more reliable, but still skewed towards non-Spectres when we aren't including Orpheus in the results. My gut feeling is that the actual ratio should be closer to 1:1 or 1:2 at the lowest.

                        What's the breakdown of spectre types? Same deal - nopop just yet, so grain of salt (as always, but slightly larger than usual).


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                          Then what is your actual objective?

                          It doesn't seem like analysis of the information of a very small and non-representative sample of a very nebulous and undefined population is going to produce many useful broad-based or applicable information. It's like doing a granular analysis of a Who's Who in "X" (this city or that profession or that subset of the population determined by some specific criteria) and trying to extrapolate not just information about "X" but about the whole society. Further undermined by having no actual knowledge of the construction of that society
                          The objective is to look at what we see in the books, set it all down in one place, and see what emerges out of the numbers and how it fits or doesn't fit with how the setting is actually presented, and whether or not there's any interesting alternate takes that can be constructed out of the data. It's the same as my ones for Changeling, Hunter, Demon, and Mage - a survey of the available material, presenting what's in there and seeing what it says about the settings and how they've been represented. Is this your first time in one of my demography threads?

                          Also, as fascinating as the deathmark conversation is, can we move it elsewhere please? I'd like to keep this thread largely to the purpose of discussing the data.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Up next, and again NoPop - though I now have estimates for the population entries I still need to determine how best to assign affiliation to them, if at all - is where the wraiths are in terms of territories. Those marked as being in the Underworld are in Stygia/Hell/Karta proper, so to speak, and not the Shadowlands. Next up will be the known Necropoli, for comparison.


                            There are a few population entries I was unable to find a suitable figure for. If anyone can be of assistance with the below, please let me know. Cited figures are strongly preferred.
                            How many dead in the varied organized crime conflicts around Prohibition in the United States from the 1920s to the 1930s? The source does not specify but does imply it is America only, which discounts my own nation's beloved razor gangs - which is a goddamn shame because Tilly Devine and Kate Leigh would have made amazing wraith characters!
                            An accurate death toll for the Brabant Revolution?
                            The approximate death toll specifically among only Mensheviks and other fringe socialists during the Russian Revolution, not the later purges or Civil War itself?

                            At present the population figures range from, at the lower end, 21,285,411, to the high end of 132,212,932. Give or take a few thousand.
                            Last edited by loomer; 01-02-2018, 12:04 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As I polish up the Necropolis data, I've come across a brief mention that there are in fact dozens of Necropoli that belong to the Compact of the Millions. I will be approaching this in two ways. The first is to simply approach them as generic necropoli, with the standard array of 'dozens' meaning. The second is selecting 48 of the most notorious, lethal, or otherwise especially significant sites of ghettos, massacres, and concentration/extermination camps and giving them the population treatment. As a result, there will be two Population figure variants - one with, and one without, the additional dead of the Holocaust. I feel that, though this model self-selects for the higher end of death tolls, it is likely to produce a fair result for the possible numbers due to the extraordinary, and horrifying, number of sites that could have given rise to the restless.

                              I'm also going to need more whiskey.

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