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  • Possibly replacing a Legion

    Thanks to current attempts at scapegoating of the mentally ill for gun crime in the US, I'm considering dropping the Penitent Legion as a concept at my own table. Correlation between mental illness and violent crimes against others is largely fictitious. The mentally ill are LESS likely to commit violent crimes against others than the psychonormative population. The main intersection between mental illness and a direct cause of death is suicide, and that's the Silent Legion's whole bag. It's one thing if the Penitent Legion is overlapping two other Legions, playing them against each other to build its own small niche, but mainly overlapping just one, pretty much makes the a "sub-Legion" and that doesn't work as well.

    I have an alternative thought: The Dreaming Legion include those who died from deprivation/starvation or the elements. Victims of famine, victims of winter, deaths by exposure, deaths by drowning. It's actually one of the fastest declining Legions thanks to the Dark Kingdom of Iron's territory being the relatively wealthy Western world, where such deaths have become comparatively rare, but there is a semi-steady trickle of the homeless, with the occasional large capture from drownings, or desert deaths in northern Mexico and southwestern US, etc. It's known as the Dreaming Legion because its members often had the least in life and want to enjoy the most in holding position in the Hierarchy in death. Its Deathlord is the Gracious Lady, who rules from the Seat of Succor. A maiden who always appears as though she's floating underwater, her palace is also a house of respite and hospital where Wraiths traumatized by their lives can acclumate to Stygia (inspired here by the hospital the canonical Seat of Succor is for the Penitent Legion; and as she has proportionally the most Wraiths who suffered from mental illness [see correlation between homelessness and schizophrenia and ptsd], it serves that purpose too).
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-20-2018, 07:27 AM.


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  • #2
    I note at least one of the Wr20 writers appears to have been thinking along similar lines, as the On Penitence sidebar has the Legion as largely those who die because of their own misjudgment.


    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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    • #3
      Interesting idea, and yeah, Marin, I noticed that. They have already downplayed the connection between violence and madness. While I like your idea, glamour, what becomes of those who died during bouts of mental illness, temporary insanity (as caused by imbibed substances), or extremely poor judgment? It's a sad fact of life that people are a danger to themselves when something causes them not to think straight.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Callishka View Post
        what becomes of those who died during bouts of mental illness, temporary insanity (as caused by imbibed substances)
        Accidents: Emerald
        Self-Harm: Silent

        Accidental ODs are a standing dispute between the two, with the Paupers trying to assert a claim in particularly ambiguous cases.
        Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-20-2018, 03:16 PM.


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        • #5
          And the Skeletal Lord loses famine/drought, even though he thinks he's the incarnation of Pestilence?

          I mean, if it works for you.

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          • #6
            One last thing: I appreciate the attempt to de-stigmatize mental illness in light of current events, but we should not cover it up, pretending that it doesn't exist or isn't something that can lead to death. I'm not very comfortable splitting it up among "Accidents" and "Self-harm", especially since people who die after losing control of themselves cannot really be said to have intended to harm themselves. Still, it's interesting. I like this idea much more for the prospect of a new Deathlord rising up to claim Mr. Bony Hand's famine/draught deaths, and much less for the brushing away of mental illness as a circumstance under which people die.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Callishka View Post
              One last thing: I appreciate the attempt to de-stigmatize mental illness in light of current events, but we should not cover it up, pretending that it doesn't exist or isn't something that can lead to death. I'm not very comfortable splitting it up among "Accidents" and "Self-harm", especially since people who die after losing control of themselves cannot really be said to have intended to harm themselves. Still, it's interesting. I like this idea much more for the prospect of a new Deathlord rising up to claim Mr. Bony Hand's famine/draught deaths, and much less for the brushing away of mental illness as a circumstance under which people die.

              The problem I'm having with the Skeletal Legion claiming deaths by famine and drought, is that it seems mostly a way to try to stick those rarer deaths (in the West) today somewhere, but historically that would have massively expanded his already huge Legion by combine two major domains of death (pestilence and famine) that were both independently massive and conceived of independent of each other.

              I mean, if he thinks he's the incarnation of Pestilence, why is he also claiming "Famine's" domain?


              Of course a separate legion for deaths by deprivation or the elements would be massively receding now, but that balances thematically against the Emerald Legion's EXPLOSION in membership since the age of automobile began a century ago.
              Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-20-2018, 03:43 PM.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                I mean, if he thinks he's the incarnation of Pestilence, why is he also claiming "Famine's" domain?
                Good point--I forgot Famine was its own rider.

                But that still doesn't help me be comfortable with putting mental illness deaths under self-harm. I feel better about them going under the Emerald Legion, though. An argument could be made that they could fall under the Paupers, I suppose, due to not knowing at the time what they were doing

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                • #9
                  I long ago paired my Legions down to five + one, partially to try to give them more depth but also for other reasons, one of which being I share your dislike of singling out mental illness, especially in what was always kind of a vague way.

                  The Ashen Legion, the Ravaged, those reaped by the White Horseman of Pestilence, having died of Disease and Sickness, many holding a passion to heal others - including society and even reality itself - in ways they could not be healed in life. They have a natural affinity for the workings of Pandemonium, the outward expression of sickness and disease into reality, and of Usury, the manipulation of spiritual health and wellness. Their elemental affinity is Ashwood. Factions include the Agents of the Red Death (secretive assassins and equalizers), the Redeemers (healers, including those seeking a cure for Spectre-dom and Oblivion), and the Order of the White Arrow (elite military archers and sharpshooters).

                  The Bloody Legion, the Torn, those reaped by the Red Horseman of War, having died of Bloodshed and Violence, many of them torn between the hope of ending violence and the passion for vengeance. They have a natural affinity for the workings of Castigate, the confronting and suppression of destructive impulses, and of Outrage, the direct expression of anger and pain. Their elemental affinity is Darkwater. Factions include the Arbitrators (peacemakers, negotiators and diplomats) and the Order of the Scarlet Sword (those who lived, died and continue to exist 'by the sword').

                  The Gaunt Legion, the Starved, those reaped by the Black Horseman of Famine, having died of Deprivation and Loss, many consumed with a passion to experience all of the things they feel were denied them in life. They have a natural affinity for the workings of Intimation, the arts of want and desire, and of Keening, the expression of one's inner pain and need. Their elemental affinity is Bonedust. Factions include the Helping Hands (a mutual aid and public relief society) and the Martyr Knights (sworn to risk their existence in service to others in need).

                  The Scorched Legion, the Fatestruck, those reaped by the Green Horseman of Fate, having died of Happenstance and Mishap, many of them driven to push the luck that failed them in life and write their own post-death destinies. They have a natural affinity for the workings of Argos, to better meet (or avoid) one's fate, and of Fatalism, the sense of the hand of happenstance. Their elemental affinity is Ghostfire. Factions include the Diamond Knights (the self-styled elite of the elite), the Troubleshooters (freelance problem solvers for hire), and the Viridian Society (working to constantly tip the odds in their own and the Legion's favor).

                  The Stone Legion, the Petrified, those reaped by the Grey Horseman of Death, having died of Age and Time, many of them still strongly tied to the people, places and passions that drive them in Life. They have a natural affinity for the workings of Inhabit, manipulating the material objects they spent so much time with in life, and of Lifeweb, the governing of the connections between people and objects formed by time. Their elemental affinity is Gravestone. Factions include the Order of the Pyramid (dedicated to preserving 'civilized' society and culture) and The Iron Box (collectors of 'true' history).

                  The Beggars Legion, the Forgotten, those reaped by the apocryphal Invisible Horseman of Doom, having died of Mystery and Miscellanea, many of them passionately obsessed with unmoving the mysteries that surround their lives, deaths and afterlives. They have a natural affinity for the workings of Moliate, reflecting their own questionable identities, and of Phantasm, the mysterious arts of dream and illusion. Their elemental affinity is Void. Factions include the Revelators (those who dig up and collect secrets and other hidden information, not always with pure motives) and the Storm Crows (direct action rabble rousers and trouble makers).

                  (For me, suicides can potentially end up in the Torn, Starved or Ashen legions, depending on circumstance. Mental illness in life may or may not carry over into death, again depending on specific circumstances as well as my preference that Wraith is, ultimately, a game about getting a second chance to find meaning in one's existence and sometimes that means being freed of certain shackles that may have weighed one down in life. The elemental affinity thing is something I sort of imported from Exalted, as I wanted to "flesh out" the underworld a bit and have unique materials that can be used for making Relics and other things. I also stopped using Skinriding and Embody as arcanoi, instead just making them things that every Wraith can do, the same way werewolves can shapeshift and vampires can use blood to heal.)


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                  • #10
                    The more I think on this, the more I lean toward replacing the Penitent Legion with some other Legion. Those who would have gone into the Penitent could be split among the Paupers (mental illness obscured the circumstance of death), Emerald (someone's loss of mental control or judgement causes an unintentional death, perhaps their own), Skeletal (the madness is clearly a symptom of an organic disease), or Grim (a mentally ill person provokes someone's violence out of self-defense or disgust). Perhaps Fate even gets a large share of the formerly-penitent because multiple destinies or urges was causing illness in life?

                    And I agree that a Legion for the "deprived" and "exposed" makes the most sense.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Callishka View Post
                      But that still doesn't help me be comfortable with putting mental illness deaths under self-harm. I feel better about them going under the Emerald Legion, though. An argument could be made that they could fall under the Paupers, I suppose, due to not knowing at the time what they were doing
                      I guess it depends where you're drawing the line. Because if people with ptsd or clinical depression aren't going into the Silent Legion, that's the probably the bulk of their membership right there.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Callishka View Post
                        The more I think on this, the more I lean toward replacing the Penitent Legion with some other Legion. Those who would have gone into the Penitent could be split among the Paupers (mental illness obscured the circumstance of death), Emerald (someone's loss of mental control or judgement causes an unintentional death, perhaps their own), Skeletal (the madness is clearly a symptom of an organic disease), or Grim (a mentally ill person provokes someone's violence out of self-defense or disgust). Perhaps Fate even gets a large share of the formerly-penitent because multiple destinies or urges was causing illness in life?

                        And I agree that a Legion for the "deprived" and "exposed" makes the most sense.

                        Yeah, this is generally what I'm thinking.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post


                          Yeah, this is generally what I'm thinking.
                          When I woke up this morning, I didn't think I'd want to replace a Wraith Legion with a new one, but your post convinced me. Thanks

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                            I long ago paired my Legions down to five + one, partially to try to give them more depth but also for other reasons, one of which being I share your dislike of singling out mental illness, especially in what was always kind of a vague way.
                            Mind if I steal this? Legions always stuck me as a crowbaring of a Vampire-style clan system in a setting that did not need it, further muddled by the varying level of reference to them (Wraith2E core barely mentions them), and the whole parallel organisation of the Guilds.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post

                              Mind if I steal this? Legions always stuck me as a crowbaring of a Vampire-style clan system in a setting that did not need it, further muddled by the varying level of reference to them (Wraith2E core barely mentions them), and the whole parallel organisation of the Guilds.
                              Feel free. I mostly adapted it from Geist's set up mixed with some of the original Legions and stuff from Orpheus.. My general idea was that when the people who end up as Wraiths (which isn't everyone - the long running adage of the underworld is that you weren't good enough for Heaven but not bad enough for Hell) all start as mindless drones until their memories of life return, giving them Passions and identity (something that can be anywhere from near instant to decades later), and one's Legion marks and identifications show up, with their Arcanos affinities tied to the nature of death, and the military aspect just being a small part of what they do. Guilds are entirely optional (and still legal - save the criminal ones), offering the benefits of additional socio-political connections, career advancement and teaching of specialized advanced usage of their chosen art.


                              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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