What is with the significant "nerf" to Arcanoi in Wraith-20?

[Shakanaka]

Actually with Dark Reflection: Spectres, you can eventually work your up to become a Onceborn (Edit: a type of Malfean). That's why I made the distinction.. Onceborn isn't the same caste as a Malfean- who has been in that "state" primordially. Onceborns are extremely powerful since for the simple fact they have been able to cunningly or luckily stave off Oblivion, while still being able to garner enough influence from it to be ascended into quasi-demigodhood. SPOILER BELOW:


Also lets just consider the fact that Charon's manifested Shadow was Gorool... You see how strong it was? How large and all-encompassing it seemed to be, towering over many structures in Stygia right? Now just think how strong Charon is if his materialized Shadow is that... Lets also note that supposedly from Hierarchy propaganda that Charon is the oldest Western dead (the oldest dead in the East serves as a minor sergeant for the Jade Emperor in Tiu Yu, don't know about Africa though) in existence. There is no WAY he doesn't have somesort of 6+ Arcanoi, considering he's basically been an active supernatural than most Kindred Methuselahs and even some Antediluvians (if they even exist that is).. Best believe that even the Deathlords and especially the Lady of Fate have some tricks up their sleeve too.

Either way I usually just homebrew Arcanoi above 6+ anyway. The Storyteller System inherently meant to be simple enough where you can fiddle it around to your absolute. That's the biggest mistake people have about oWoD- that unlike CofD that its "Splatlocked" or not malleable enough because of the metaplot. Metaplot is always just a good guideline of frame of where you want to take the story. You can run it how ever you like lol. W20 is still a good resource, just ignore the Arcanoi you don't like and leave the 2nd edition Arcanoi if you want too.

[tasti man LH]

I wouldn't say that arcanoi beyond 1-5 are necessary, but I don't think a lot of feats in wraith history are as possible as they are with the new arcanoi system. If Malfeans don't use the same stats as wraith, how was Charon able to 1 vs 1 Gorool. Even if Charon didn't Win in your campaign, it was at least a pretty close fight in the way wraith described it.

Also lets just consider the fact that Charon's manifested Shadow was Gorool... You see how strong it was? How large and all-encompassing it seemed to be, towering over many structures in Stygia right? Now just think how strong Charon is if his materialized Shadow is that... Lets also note that supposedly from Hierarchy propaganda that Charon is the oldest Western dead (the oldest dead in the East serves as a minor sergeant for the Jade Emperor in Tiu Yu, don't know about Africa though) in existence. There is no WAY he doesn't have somesort of 6+ Arcanoi, considering he's basically been an active supernatural than most Kindred Methuselahs and even some Antediluvians (if they even exist that is).. Best believe that even the Deathlords and especially the Lady of Fate have some tricks up their sleeve too.

Y'all act as if the fluff not lining up 100% with the mechanics is something new to WoD. xD

You’re assuming Charon overpowered Garool through super mighty combat powers, and not because of his connection to that voice coming from inside Garool’s maw. Much more interesting if he exploited a secret weakness tied to his own Shadow but requiring Self Sacrifice than he rolled a huge bunch of dice because of his special combat moves.

See, THIS I find a lot more interesting of an idea.

Not to mention the above I find to be a more consistent characterization of Charon versus just "Charon hit Gorool really really hard with Siklos".

Actually with Dark Reflection: Spectres, you can eventually work your up to become a Onceborn (Edit: a type of Malfean). That's why I made the distinction.. Onceborn isn't the same caste as a Malfean- who has been in that "state" primordially. Onceborns are extremely powerful since for the simple fact they have been able to cunningly or luckily stave off Oblivion, while still being able to garner enough influence from it to be ascended into quasi-demigodhood.

...and we're talking Spectres now, which aren't exactly the first pick for most players at tables.

Either way I usually just homebrew Arcanoi above 6+ anyway.

Which even then, it's hardly a betrayal to the material because Wraith never had rating +6 Arcanoi.

V20 had it because the gameline the previous editions of Vampire had already established that Disciplines at +6 ratings existed. Wraith didn't. Which is hardly exclusive to Wr20 anyways: C20 didn't introduce Arts or Realms that go to +6 rating because they never existed in Changeling.

Conversely, M20 did not bring forward Archspheres...and IIRC, it's because Brucato has a very public distaste for them.

[glamourweaver]

I thought they confirmed Garool was not Charon’s Shadow, but had eatten and was possibly being directed by it?

[Prometheas]

You’re assuming Charon overpowered Garool through super mighty combat powers, and not because of his connection to that voice coming from inside Garool’s maw. Much more interesting if he exploited a secret weakness tied to his own Shadow but requiring Self Sacrifice than he rolled a huge bunch of dice because of his special combat moves.

See, THIS I find a lot more interesting of an idea.

Not to mention the above I find to be a more consistent characterization of Charon versus just "Charon hit Gorool really really hard with Siklos".

Okay, but what "Secret Weakness" is that? Why would a malphean that has presumably been eating souls it's entire existence have a large and glaring weakness that only becomes conveniently evident Now. Has this happened to other Neverborn or Onceborn? Why does Charon know about this "Weakness"?

I honestly don't really get this. It's effectively substituting "special Combat moves" for "special Plot moves".

I'm starting to think our disagreement comes from one side not being as interested in combat as the other.

I thought they confirmed Garool was not Charon’s Shadow, but had eatten and was possibly being directed by it?

It was. I don't remember if Gorool was a onceborn or a neverborn though.

Y'all act as if the fluff not lining up 100% with the mechanics is something new to WoD. xD

No, but that doesn't mean I have to like it when it happens.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

I seem to recall Gorool initially being described as the biggest, most powerful of the Malfeans. But I believe that was retconned away as the Neverborn gained prominence and got exported as the Big Bads behind the Big Bads of other WW games.

[DeadMan]

the Wraith books are full of things that players can't do, in the Great War book, they have some of the Death Lords running around the Shadowlands but none of them have fetters, i know that they could have just been using Life Web, but that is a big drain on resources after a while, as for Gorool i remember that he was an old Malfean but in 2nd Ed, they tried to make him a Nephwrack, similar to Cold Heart, Charon in the Great war is a playable NPC, and it is said that he can do just about anything that is needed, as he was just kind of walking around the Shaowlands, checking on his people.

as for 6+ level Arcanos effects check out this
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...wraith-options

[Deinos]

You make it sound like there's no option to play a Risen.


Except the optics of Geist are completely different because you aren't actually playing as the ghost. Rather, you play as someone who's half stuck in life and death to assist other ghosts.

That doesn't seem comparable to Wraith in this regard.

I know about risen. The book also says you're not supposed to play one for long -- another example of the book's bad attitude.
I brought up Geist because it simultaneously has more power while tethering its powers more strictly to ghost story schticks instead of a mix of ghost story stuff and random supernatural powers.