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What is with the significant "nerf" to Arcanoi in Wraith-20?

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  • #46
    Actually with Dark Reflection: Spectres, you can eventually work your up to become a Onceborn (Edit: a type of Malfean). That's why I made the distinction.. Onceborn isn't the same caste as a Malfean- who has been in that "state" primordially. Onceborns are extremely powerful since for the simple fact they have been able to cunningly or luckily stave off Oblivion, while still being able to garner enough influence from it to be ascended into quasi-demigodhood. SPOILER BELOW:


    Also lets just consider the fact that Charon's manifested Shadow was Gorool... You see how strong it was? How large and all-encompassing it seemed to be, towering over many structures in Stygia right? Now just think how strong Charon is if his materialized Shadow is that... Lets also note that supposedly from Hierarchy propaganda that Charon is the oldest Western dead (the oldest dead in the East serves as a minor sergeant for the Jade Emperor in Tiu Yu, don't know about Africa though) in existence. There is no WAY he doesn't have somesort of 6+ Arcanoi, considering he's basically been an active supernatural than most Kindred Methuselahs and even some Antediluvians (if they even exist that is).. Best believe that even the Deathlords and especially the Lady of Fate have some tricks up their sleeve too.

    Either way I usually just homebrew Arcanoi above 6+ anyway. The Storyteller System inherently meant to be simple enough where you can fiddle it around to your absolute. That's the biggest mistake people have about oWoD- that unlike CofD that its "Splatlocked" or not malleable enough because of the metaplot. Metaplot is always just a good guideline of frame of where you want to take the story. You can run it how ever you like lol. W20 is still a good resource, just ignore the Arcanoi you don't like and leave the 2nd edition Arcanoi if you want too.
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 01-13-2020, 06:42 AM.


    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
      I wouldn't say that arcanoi beyond 1-5 are necessary, but I don't think a lot of feats in wraith history are as possible as they are with the new arcanoi system. If Malfeans don't use the same stats as wraith, how was Charon able to 1 vs 1 Gorool. Even if Charon didn't Win in your campaign, it was at least a pretty close fight in the way wraith described it.
      Originally posted by Shakanaka
      Also lets just consider the fact that Charon's manifested Shadow was Gorool... You see how strong it was? How large and all-encompassing it seemed to be, towering over many structures in Stygia right? Now just think how strong Charon is if his materialized Shadow is that... Lets also note that supposedly from Hierarchy propaganda that Charon is the oldest Western dead (the oldest dead in the East serves as a minor sergeant for the Jade Emperor in Tiu Yu, don't know about Africa though) in existence. There is no WAY he doesn't have somesort of 6+ Arcanoi, considering he's basically been an active supernatural than most Kindred Methuselahs and even some Antediluvians (if they even exist that is).. Best believe that even the Deathlords and especially the Lady of Fate have some tricks up their sleeve too.
      Y'all act as if the fluff not lining up 100% with the mechanics is something new to WoD. xD

      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
      You’re assuming Charon overpowered Garool through super mighty combat powers, and not because of his connection to that voice coming from inside Garool’s maw. Much more interesting if he exploited a secret weakness tied to his own Shadow but requiring Self Sacrifice than he rolled a huge bunch of dice because of his special combat moves.
      See, THIS I find a lot more interesting of an idea.

      Not to mention the above I find to be a more consistent characterization of Charon versus just "Charon hit Gorool really really hard with Siklos".

      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      Actually with Dark Reflection: Spectres, you can eventually work your up to become a Onceborn (Edit: a type of Malfean). That's why I made the distinction.. Onceborn isn't the same caste as a Malfean- who has been in that "state" primordially. Onceborns are extremely powerful since for the simple fact they have been able to cunningly or luckily stave off Oblivion, while still being able to garner enough influence from it to be ascended into quasi-demigodhood.
      ...and we're talking Spectres now, which aren't exactly the first pick for most players at tables.

      Either way I usually just homebrew Arcanoi above 6+ anyway.
      Which even then, it's hardly a betrayal to the material because Wraith never had rating +6 Arcanoi.

      V20 had it because the gameline the previous editions of Vampire had already established that Disciplines at +6 ratings existed. Wraith didn't. Which is hardly exclusive to Wr20 anyways: C20 didn't introduce Arts or Realms that go to +6 rating because they never existed in Changeling.

      Conversely, M20 did not bring forward Archspheres...and IIRC, it's because Brucato has a very public distaste for them.

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      • #48
        I thought they confirmed Garool was not Charon’s Shadow, but had eatten and was possibly being directed by it?


        Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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        • #49
          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
          You’re assuming Charon overpowered Garool through super mighty combat powers, and not because of his connection to that voice coming from inside Garool’s maw. Much more interesting if he exploited a secret weakness tied to his own Shadow but requiring Self Sacrifice than he rolled a huge bunch of dice because of his special combat moves.
          Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
          See, THIS I find a lot more interesting of an idea.

          Not to mention the above I find to be a more consistent characterization of Charon versus just "Charon hit Gorool really really hard with Siklos".
          Okay, but what "Secret Weakness" is that? Why would a malphean that has presumably been eating souls it's entire existence have a large and glaring weakness that only becomes conveniently evident Now. Has this happened to other Neverborn or Onceborn? Why does Charon know about this "Weakness"?

          I honestly don't really get this. It's effectively substituting "special Combat moves" for "special Plot moves".

          I'm starting to think our disagreement comes from one side not being as interested in combat as the other.

          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
          I thought they confirmed Garool was not Charon’s Shadow, but had eatten and was possibly being directed by it?
          It was. I don't remember if Gorool was a onceborn or a neverborn though.

          Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
          Y'all act as if the fluff not lining up 100% with the mechanics is something new to WoD. xD
          No, but that doesn't mean I have to like it when it happens.

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          • #50
            I seem to recall Gorool initially being described as the biggest, most powerful of the Malfeans. But I believe that was retconned away as the Neverborn gained prominence and got exported as the Big Bads behind the Big Bads of other WW games.

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            • #51
              the Wraith books are full of things that players can't do, in the Great War book, they have some of the Death Lords running around the Shadowlands but none of them have fetters, i know that they could have just been using Life Web, but that is a big drain on resources after a while, as for Gorool i remember that he was an old Malfean but in 2nd Ed, they tried to make him a Nephwrack, similar to Cold Heart, Charon in the Great war is a playable NPC, and it is said that he can do just about anything that is needed, as he was just kind of walking around the Shaowlands, checking on his people.

              as for 6+ level Arcanos effects check out this
              http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...wraith-options

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              • #52
                Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                You make it sound like there's no option to play a Risen.


                Except the optics of Geist are completely different because you aren't actually playing as the ghost. Rather, you play as someone who's half stuck in life and death to assist other ghosts.

                That doesn't seem comparable to Wraith in this regard.
                I know about risen. The book also says you're not supposed to play one for long -- another example of the book's bad attitude.
                I brought up Geist because it simultaneously has more power while tethering its powers more strictly to ghost story schticks instead of a mix of ghost story stuff and random supernatural powers.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                  I know about risen. The book also says you're not supposed to play one for long
                  Wut? Where?

                  another example of the book's bad attitude.
                  Oh shut up with the theatrics.

                  It's hard for me to take your opinion seriously if you're being so melodramatic.

                  I brought up Geist because it simultaneously has more power while tethering its powers more strictly to ghost story schticks instead of a mix of ghost story stuff and random supernatural powers.
                  Except Geist isn't about the PCs starring in the ghost stories. It's about the PCs investigating ghost stories and helping the ghosts move on because they have a harder time doing it themselves.

                  While in Wraith, not only are the PCs the one directly starring in classic ghost stories, but they're the ones that need to resolve their unfinished business themselves.

                  Geist and Wraith are not comparable in this regard.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Deinos View Post

                    I know about risen. The book also says you're not supposed to play one for long -- another example of the book's bad attitude.
                    It's not a bad attitude; it's a choice in line with the setting they created. But for those who want to play a Risen for a longer period, they left the door open: read the side bar called The Order of Acherontia Styx, page 389.

                    These agents have all risen at least once, and plan to do it again. It's their job to rise, and they are supported by the Hierarchy. there's even a line that says that some of them are scarily good at transitioning between wraith and Risen states.

                    It's clear from those two or three paragraphs that the game does support long-term rising, it just doesn't consider it a normal part of the setting. That's where you come in, take the inspiration they dropped, and make your own group of long-term Risers.

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                    • #55
                      Realizing that I never posted this up from a different thread and because the conversation is coming back up on why "no, Wr2o Arcanoi are not weak"

                      Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                      -Moliate Common 2: Sculpt lets you get Claws and Fangs…which specifically grant you the ability to deal Aggravated. And this is a Common Art, and only at rating 2, meaning any non-Masquer wraith could learn it.

                      -Usury Common 3: Corpus Conduit lets the users steal health. While it is just bashing damage if you use it on an undamaged target, it still adds up over time. And that yes, you get more mileage if the target is already damaged. However, the Difficulty is always determined by max health level. Which on non-wraith targets, is usually always 7 at the highest. So…in crossover games, Usurers do have a pretty good advantage against the other splats.

                      -Inhabit Initiate 3: Smith's Tenacity allows the wraith to soak Aggravated damage. Which yes, the caveat is that in order to learn it is that you need to be in the Artificer Guild to learn it, but technically that Guildwraith could still teach it to anyone else (which even then, that's up to the ST on how strict/loose the Guilds are at teaching non-Guildswraiths Initiate Arts).

                      -Keening Common 4: Crescendo, which is the closest thing to an AoE attack in Wraith. A little bit of a "but…" since it targets everyone in hearing range, including your allies, but still pretty powerful. This is compounded with a new rule when it comes to Keening where using it across the Shroud incurs a -4 to the Difficulty…meaning if you're targetting someone across the Shroud you're always going to be rolling at Difficult 4-6. Which is a pretty good equalizer to it's "two successes count as 1 level of damage". And then there's it's Initiate version Banshee, which swaps it out with aggravated damage.

                      Since I know this is about Outrage Common 5 - Obliviate: no, I don't think it's a matter of the Big Damage power getting nerfed, it's more about "expanding the other powers so Obliviate isn't the One True Answer to Big Damage". And even ignoring that…it's Angst penalty only went up by 1. 3 Angst isn't that big of a leap from 2 Angst. And someone in your Circle should know Castigate to lower Angst anyways because…why wouldn't you?

                      If the concern is Pathos cost…well:

                      1.) Your character should be regularly engaging in their Passions because they should be Things-they-were-going-to-do-anyways and how that's kind of the whole point of the game. Your character has no excuse for not going into an encounter will full Pathos, nor neglecting their Passions.

                      2.) Even if that isn't the case, your characters should also be stocking up on Soulfire Crystals to pop and gain Pathos back. They have no excuse at not being friends with the local Usurer, or having one in their Circle.

                      And that's without getting into how INSANELY DURABLE wraiths are:

                      -Every single wraith starts off with 10 base health, something the other splats can only achieve with either Merits or certain powers.

                      -Insubstantiality trivializing Skinlands damage to only the 1 bashing damage.

                      -They're the only splat that doesn't insta-die from aggravated damage overflow. And that they have a chance on coming back from, an option none of the other splats really have.
                      Also adding something that I discovered from running my Wr20 game:

                      -Argos Common 3: Flicker - in combat, it allows for short range teleportation, where you could essentially run circles around your enemy, popping up behind them in order to backstab a guy. And considering it doesn't cost an action if the roll is successful, that's pretty huge.

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                      • #56
                        The books mostly good and I always liked playing low tier ha, e swjere the entirety of the world isn't at stake.

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