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  • How are you liking Wr20?

    I liked Wr20. Did you?

  • #2
    I did. It's excellent. Very much the Revised Edition we deserved.

    One question for anyone who cares to answer: Willpower is still two freebies, unlike every other WoD game. Is this intentional, due to the higher starting Willpower, do you think (it was pointed out in the errata thread, which makes me think it was left in for a purpose)?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
      I did. It's excellent. Very much the Revised Edition we deserved.

      One question for anyone who cares to answer: Willpower is still two freebies, unlike every other WoD game. Is this intentional, due to the higher starting Willpower, do you think (it was pointed out in the errata thread, which makes me think it was left in for a purpose)?
      Is it that Willpower is especially important for Wraiths? If that's the case then I'd happily change it so that in M20 the cost is doubled. Willpower isn't *as* important to Vampires or Garou/Fera; it's a great resource and a way to resist mind-control, but for Mages Willpower is a cap to all Sphere levels (so if you have 5 and lose a point, you can't use level 5 spheres), a way to avoid paradox murdering you and a great way to get the successes you need for magick (where a single success is worth a lot).

      How important do you think Willpower is in Wr20?

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      • #4
        I'm seeing something to be desired with this game ...

        Why in the world are so many level 5 Arcani no longer worth spending experience on, or not worth using the Pathos necessary to activate their effects.

        To have a Wraith who is formidable, with an imposing presence do to their high Levels they have achieved in their Arcani; you basically have to scrap this book, and use the old 1998 2cnd edition release.

        I guess in an age where the new generation needs to have their participation ribbons, that mentality has bled its way into the rpg world. Tone down the more powerful characteristics of the game mechanics in order to make everyone seem ... Equal ... even though this is supposed to be a Horror related game, where Equality is a luxury; because that means you haven't met the big bad bump in the night ... yet!

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        • #5
          Its pretty damn awesome.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

            Is it that Willpower is especially important for Wraiths? If that's the case then I'd happily change it so that in M20 the cost is doubled. Willpower isn't *as* important to Vampires or Garou/Fera; it's a great resource and a way to resist mind-control, but for Mages Willpower is a cap to all Sphere levels (so if you have 5 and lose a point, you can't use level 5 spheres), a way to avoid paradox murdering you and a great way to get the successes you need for magick (where a single success is worth a lot).

            How important do you think Willpower is in Wr20?
            It's important for fending off the Shadow and the pull of Oblivion, but also, characters start at Willpower 5, whereas in Vampire they start off with 1-5 Willpower. That may be the reason why.

            Originally posted by Quiet Storm View Post
            I'm seeing something to be desired with this game ...

            Why in the world are so many level 5 Arcani no longer worth spending experience on, or not worth using the Pathos necessary to activate their effects.

            To have a Wraith who is formidable, with an imposing presence do to their high Levels they have achieved in their Arcani; you basically have to scrap this book, and use the old 1998 2cnd edition release.

            I guess in an age where the new generation needs to have their participation ribbons, that mentality has bled its way into the rpg world. Tone down the more powerful characteristics of the game mechanics in order to make everyone seem ... Equal ... even though this is supposed to be a Horror related game, where Equality is a luxury; because that means you haven't met the big bad bump in the night ... yet!

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            I agree that the powers seem nerfed. For instance, you could use cool thematic powers like Ride the Electron Highway at Inhabit 2, which felt appropriate given that Phantom Wings is Argos 2. But the new rules are generally more detailed, so you can just move the powers around if you need to.

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            • #7
              I doubt that level 5 powers have been weakened to appeal to "SJWs". Maybe since wraith is a game more focused on personal horror they wanted to reduce the maximum power level of player characters? Regardless I've never seen a socially liberal person asking that powers be toned down so that high power characters and low power characters have closer power levels. I can understand being annoyed at Arcanoi getting weaker but this just feels like a huge leap in reasoning.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Quiet Storm View Post

                I guess in an age where the new generation needs to have their participation ribbons, that mentality has bled its way into the rpg world. Tone down the more powerful characteristics of the game mechanics in order to make everyone seem ... Equal ... even though this is supposed to be a Horror related game, where Equality is a luxury; because that means you haven't met the big bad bump in the night ... yet!

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                Wow... that is some grade A paranoid bullshit right there.

                1) Participation trophies were a thing baby boomer parents did. It’s not a thing millennials or Gen z wanted or are particularly noted as as giving their own kids.

                2) Panning down certain level 5 powers is about making the different arcanoi more balanced with each other, not because anyone was complaining Arcanoi 5 characters in general are too powerful - but when certain Arcanoi grossly outclass others it creates “one true builds” which is boring.

                Now, you may think that isn’t as fun design, which is fine, but that’s the motivating reason behind it, not something involving thinly-veiled euphemisms for thinking racism and homophobia, etc, are bad things like those whiny brats today do.


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                  Wow... that is some grade A paranoid bullshit right there.

                  1) Participation trophies were a thing baby boomer parents did. It’s not a thing millennials or Gen z wanted or are particularly noted as as giving their own kids.

                  2) Panning down certain level 5 powers is about making the different arcanoi more balanced with each other, not because anyone was complaining Arcanoi 5 characters in general are too powerful - but when certain Arcanoi grossly outclass others it creates “one true builds” which is boring.

                  Now, you may think that isn’t as fun design, which is fine, but that’s the motivating reason behind it, not something involving thinly-veiled euphemisms for thinking racism and homophobia, etc, are bad things like those whiny brats today do.
                  The biggest participation trophies are memorials of southern civil war generals, pass it on.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                    Wow... that is some grade A paranoid bullshit right there.

                    1) Participation trophies were a thing baby boomer parents did. It’s not a thing millennials or Gen z wanted or are particularly noted as as giving their own kids.

                    2) Panning down certain level 5 powers is about making the different arcanoi more balanced with each other, not because anyone was complaining Arcanoi 5 characters in general are too powerful - but when certain Arcanoi grossly outclass others it creates “one true builds” which is boring.

                    Now, you may think that isn’t as fun design, which is fine, but that’s the motivating reason behind it, not something involving thinly-veiled euphemisms for thinking racism and homophobia, etc, are bad things like those whiny brats today do.
                    I think anyone aware of the old 2cnd edition Level 5 Arcanoi could plainly see what the motivation behind it was.

                    And, making the higher levels lesser in effect, and not scary abilities by the Ghosts you wouldn't want to cross, makes a perfect analogy for wanting them "Balanced" suggests someone who would rather watch a game played, where everyone is equal, and nobody is keeping score.

                    Actually, Baby Boomers were the ones who not only drove cars without wearing Seat belts ... they were raised to purchase cars that didn't even have seat belts to begin with. They played Football where tackling head first was not only encouraged, it was expected. And Concussions were just part of the sport.

                    The early 20th century Parents built the infrastructure we have, And left a growing industry for their children. The Baby Boomers were more blue collar than any in history, which became a middle class society. It was no longer the haves & the have nots. There was now a have some populace ... They made a culture where their children would compete for jobs, teaching competition is the way to get ahead.

                    What you are mistaking as the Baby Boomer generation, is the lull of hippy nonsense that happened in between. From the Free Lovers, to the early 80's, those were the ones who created this, everyone is special, unique and fair play is equality Garbley-gook.

                    But, we GenXers did not do a whole lot to push back against it. Or, at least we didn't do enough to prevent it from getting to where it is today.

                    The millennials have merely embraced it. Not all of them, but a great portion, to the point that GenX and the Mellennial perspectives clash regularly.

                    However, that being typed ... gaming industries are a product of capitol achievement. Even those who wish they were as cutting edge as they would like to pretend to be. It is most definitely an industry which caters to a particular demographic. More & more, that demographic is is the Mellennial generation ... understandably, because they still have Young Money. And the Generation that is being raised now, is a wild mélange of children of parents from GenX who waited until their 40's to birth, and Millennial parents.

                    The ideals of that generation is going to see major clashing of the wills with massive degrees in perspectives attempting to coalesce a single voice.

                    And whats sad is, there happens to be a sick vocal force in today's media, who want to shame people for not allowing children to make adult decisions ... It sure isn't the Baby Boomers doing it.

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                    • #11
                      What in the name of Charon?!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Quiet Storm View Post

                        I think anyone aware of the old 2cnd edition Level 5 Arcanoi could plainly see what the motivation behind it was.

                        And, making the higher levels lesser in effect, and not scary abilities by the Ghosts you wouldn't want to cross, makes a perfect analogy for wanting them "Balanced" suggests someone who would rather watch a game played, where everyone is equal, and nobody is keeping score.
                        I cannot speak to the rest of your points, I can't even speak to most of the above because to do that I'd have to be able to follow it. I'd suggest not assuming that everyone plainly sees whatever it is you plainly see. But I digress...

                        I'm just going to respond to the single point (possibly one you weren't even making) that game balance is about appeasement. And I suppose it is, in the same sense that making a good movie is about giving the audience something they want to see. Which is to say that's not what appeasement is. Games live or die by balance, and the subject is much more complicated than can be summed up in a handful of sentences.

                        It certainly isn't a new issue. For as long as I've been in this hobby (and to date myself, that's since the 90s) we've been discussing game balance. I've seen arguments about how D&D2nd wizards are balanced against fighters because even though wizards completely dominate the late game, they pay for it by being useless in the early game. I bring that up not because it is laughable (though it is a bad game design philosophy, in my opinion) but as an example of how old this discussion is.

                        As a shared endeavor, RPGs hinge on everyone involved trying to keep things balanced, the players, the game master, the writers, everyone. It's not about keeping people from feeling challenged, and it is not about making sure everyone is numerically equal. It is about a much more complicated kind of balance, that of engagement, expectations, effect on the story, and a whole host of other things. Where that centerpoint is will change from group to group and game to game, but it is the lifeblood of the gaming table.

                        Experienced players and game masters know how to handle that balance, it's a large part of what makes them experienced. Hell, experienced groups can make a great game of a bad system because they know what they will have fun with, and how to communicate when they aren't having fun. Not everyone who plays a game is going to be experienced enough to navigate around the pitfalls, though, which means that every pitfall has the potential to make new players leave the game. So if you can deal with the pitfalls in the development stage... But this is a bigger discussion than this thread needs, several decades bigger in fact.

                        None of which is to say that nerfing the upper levels of the Arcanoi was the best way to handle balance. But discussing how and why it works or doesn't work is a much more productive topic of conversation than ascribing motivations. The former at least leads to better understanding of the mechanics and possible alternatives. The latter...?


                        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Quiet Storm View Post
                          I guess in an age where the new generation needs to have their participation ribbons, that mentality has bled its way into the rpg world. Tone down the more powerful characteristics of the game mechanics in order to make everyone seem ... Equal ... even though this is supposed to be a Horror related game, where Equality is a luxury; because that means you haven't met the big bad bump in the night ... yet!
                          I am happy to inform you, with some degree of authority on this particular matter, that you have no idea what you're talking about.

                          - C.



                          Clayton A. Oliver | Formerly Ubiquitous

                          When the half-light starts to rise/And the long gone come back again
                          After the shortcuts and the highs/Comes the pain
                          And the rain

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                          • #14
                            His reasons may be false, or arguable... but the facts that are causing him concern are undeniable.

                            The level 5 powers are in many cases, completely under-powered. I highlighted this in a previous post and inmy opinion, there is no rational reason behind this - it is rather arbitrary (example look at Keening and Moliate vs Usury and Pandemonium or Outrage). It is unfortunate that a product that did many things correctly, pretty much hobbled itself when it comes to what it makes it a game rather than a novel - the rules.

                            To answer the OP, we are not finding it much of anything. We only purchased the one PDF, and shelved it, with no interest in purchasing any upcoming products from the line (if any are even forthcoming).
                            Last edited by Nerhesi; 09-21-2018, 12:07 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Quiet Storm View Post

                              I guess in an age where the new generation needs to have their participation ribbons, that mentality has bled its way into the rpg world. Tone down the more powerful characteristics of the game mechanics in order to make everyone seem ... Equal ... even though this is supposed to be a Horror related game, where Equality is a luxury; because that means you haven't met the big bad bump in the night ... yet!

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                              hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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