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  • #31
    why where the basics removed and not replaced, many of those arts aren't replicated. with the power of many of the higher level costing too much or just Nerfed, if you look at V:tm or W:ta, Mage they got lots of new gifts,Routes or what have you and wraith we got a few new art and i mean a few, plus the many alt arts that are in other books just got left by the wayside and the non-Stygian arts got nothing at all.

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    • #32
      I was, and am, a Wraith fan from at least back in the 2nd edition days. Wraith 20 is a fine book... that could have been better.

      Mage 20 provide many sets of boxed text where variations of the metaplot were discussed. For example, maybe the Technocracy is riddled with Nephandi, maybe it is not. Maybe the Avatar storm still rages, and maybe it does not. M20 discusses the possibilities of the setting after the end of the previously published material.

      Wraith 20 does not explore this, except to detail Orphus. Wraith 20 is too proscriptive in this sense, meaning it is too limiting when compared to M20.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
        Wraith 20 does not explore this, except to detail Orphus. Wraith 20 is too proscriptive in this sense, meaning it is too limiting when compared to M20.
        I mean. It's a little bit hard to do with Wraith since the meat and potatoes would boil down to:

        "Did the spirit nuke happen?

        Yes- Then stop playing, the Underworld is gone.

        No- The Underworld is still around, go about your business"

        ...also you might as well say all of the other WoD20 gamelines are too limiting since none of them did anything to the equivalent of Future Fates.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

          I mean. It's a little bit hard to do with Wraith since the meat and potatoes would boil down to:

          "Did the spirit nuke happen?

          Yes- Then stop playing, the Underworld is gone.

          No- The Underworld is still around, go about your business"

          ...also you might as well say all of the other WoD20 gamelines are too limiting since none of them did anything to the equivalent of Future Fates.

          Not really. As I recall, Ends of Empire ends with the group being crowned (masked?) the new Deathlords and the ones to shepherd the remaining Wraiths through the 6GM. So there was plenty of indication that some form of Dark Kingdom of Iron would exist. In addition there was even a thriving fan community for a while that wrote supplements for a post 6GM world. They focused on now isolated Necropoli weathering the aftereffects of the Maelstrom. Adding to that the (once canon) Orpheus storyline and every possibility between its barren Underworld and the one we see in Wr20 and you have a lot of possibilities to mix and match.


          Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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          • #35
            This is my point. M20 presents a lot of information and flexibility. W20, by comparison, does not. Ramnesis is correct; Ends of the Empire concludes with a lot of possibilities for what came next. Orpheus did not - it was a pared to the bone post-apocalyptic situation in terms of the Shadowlands. W20 presents situation as on the eve of the final disasters, but no other options. For W20 it is an either/or situation. M20 presents a number of sliding scales. W20 is not bad, it is just not are nuanced and interesting as M20. It I keep harping on that is it because it seemed the people behind M20 saw what V20 looked like, and what Werrewolf20 looked like, and decided to do one better. The people involved in W20 did not do that.

            My own take on a post 6th Maelstrom is something like Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire still exists, but if you are not sheltered in it, you will face a lot of turmoil. If you are in it, you probably face a semi-stable tyranny. I do not know what city fulfills to role of Byzantium in this scenario - the heir to Rome or Stygia in this case. It might be Chicago, to tie it in closely with the forthcoming book .

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
              Ends of the Empire concludes with a lot of possibilities for what came next.
              ...so did ALL of the End Times books.

              They all provided multiple choice on how each gameline could end (Gehenna, Apocalypse, Ascension, Time of Judgement) with all varying degrees of either following or not following it.

              For all intents and purposes, it was Brucato's choice to do the Future Fates stuff in M20, not an OPP directive. It's nice to have, but it's not really something that makes or breaks Wraith20 or Changeling20 and choosing to do their own thing. With Wr20 making the choice of just having it set before the 6GM, and C20 making the choice of continuing/resolving the metaplot by having High King David being found and brought back. Which alright. That's the dev's choice.

              And that's without taking into account the hellish development Wr20 went through.

              (although from what I understand, out of the Big 5, Changeling is the least-metaplot depended so it not having its own Future Fates is very inconsequential and nobody cared)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                It's nice to have, but it's not really something that makes or breaks Wraith20 or Changeling20 and choosing to do their own thing.
                I never said it was bad, just that M20 is better by comparison - a more flexible tool for gamers than the proscriptive Wr20.

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                • #38
                  Its fine, could be better. I wish they had not changed the Arcanoi so much. I am ending up having to just use a buncha 2nd Edition stuff, in particular giving Fatalism some more Oracular flair back and Sandmen the ability to do their Theater since they removed Elysia for some reason and replaced it with Sleepy Sense. (Has it been explained why Sandmen lost their ability to do their signature Theater thing?)


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                    I was, and am, a Wraith fan from at least back in the 2nd edition days. Wraith 20 is a fine book... that could have been better.

                    Mage 20 provide many sets of boxed text where variations of the metaplot were discussed. For example, maybe the Technocracy is riddled with Nephandi, maybe it is not. Maybe the Avatar storm still rages, and maybe it does not. M20 discusses the possibilities of the setting after the end of the previously published material.

                    Wraith 20 does not explore this, except to detail Orphus. Wraith 20 is too proscriptive in this sense, meaning it is too limiting when compared to M20.
                    Different strokes for different folks I guess but I found Future Fates to be the most pointless part of the M20. It boiled down to :

                    1 - use the whole metaplot event as presented
                    2- use only the parts of the event that you want
                    3 - don't use the event or change its outcome

                    And repeat that umpteen of times. I don't need to be reminded thouand times that it's my game and I can run it however I see fit.
                    Last edited by sathriel; 11-26-2018, 09:36 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                      I never said it was bad, just that M20 is better by comparison - a more flexible tool for gamers than the proscriptive Wr20.
                      Not really?

                      Like, I don't NEED the metaplot to run an interesting chronicle. I got enough ideas to pick from: personal tale of reaching Transcendence, slice-of-(un)life in Stygia, Renegades trying to bring down the corrupt system of the Hierarchy, combat heavy Doomslaying in the Labyrinth, Guild work and trying to stay a step ahead of any Hierarchy shenanigans, trying to make it as a Ferryman, exploring the other Dark Kingdoms, doing the Risen jig, or an alt-chronicle as being a Spectre.

                      All stuff that's not metaplot-dependent and are flexible enough to take whatever form they can. Seems fine to me.

                      ---------------------------------------------------
                      Even then, it's kind of unfair to compare it to Mage.

                      Since even before M20, Mage was known for being so flexible that you could do pretty much any genre in fiction within a Mage chronicle and it would always make sense. It's the type of flexibility that none of the other WoD gamelines were built for, because Mage was always about what your Will is being your Reality.

                      Wraith was not designed for that intention. Neither was Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling, etc.
                      Last edited by tasti man LH; 11-27-2018, 02:31 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by sathriel
                        I don't need to be reminded thousand times that it's my game and I can run it however I see fit.
                        It's not the storyteller that needs to be reminded, it's the players! Way too many people who play this game insist on all the canon being exactly as presented in the books, it's one of the drawbacks of having too much fluff in WW books.

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