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  • Wraith 5?

    What would you want out of a hypothetical Wraith 5th Edition, circa 2024?

  • #2
    The other/missing Guild books, a complete list of all Alt Arts that are missing from the 20th Ed. More example Artifacts, Far Shores sample realms, Spectral caste and Dark Arcanos Alt arts.

    Things like that, to start with. The missing Guild books would be really great, as I have wanted to see the Harbingers Guild book, I know that there is an online fan made.

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    • #3
      I think it would be nice if they made clear that the 6th Great Maelstrom did happen, preserving some of Ends of Empire while also showing how the Shadowlands has continued on

      I think it also might make sense to fold the Kuei-Jin and Mummy more clearly into Wraith/Risen cosmology and mechanics. That would be a way of preserving those game lines while also making things more updated, culturally sensitive, and cleaner mechanically

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      • #4
        Trategos - I like your idea, but can Mummy really be folded in with Risen mechanics? The Undying are *not* undead. They're immortal and very much alive. Even the older ones, who had one foot in the grave were living beings (not that very many of those kinds remain, but there are some that do). With Kindred of the East, this makes more sense, as they're essentially an alternate version of Risen with vampiric qualities. Of course, mummies start as Wraiths and Wraith remnants, but given that whole alive again versus dead and walking thing, I'm not sure that they would fit so neatly. Then again, maybe with an explanation of mechanical differences, they could? I know that I'd like to see some love for Mummy: the Resurrection, however it can be done.

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        • #5
          I don't really want a Wr5 if it's going to be like V5 (though Shadow Dice are obviously already part of the system, filling the niche Hunger fills in V5). Wr20 did enough to update the setting and rules, so that's perfect for me.

          However, a post-6GM setting update would be cool. Maybe as a V20.5 edition? In many ways, though, The Great War setting gives us a very good idea of what post-existence would be like during a Great Maelstrom. I always thought they put it out to give us a way to play those chronicles.
          Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 01-12-2019, 03:41 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
            Trategos - I like your idea, but can Mummy really be folded in with Risen mechanics? The Undying are *not* undead. They're immortal and very much alive. Even the older ones, who had one foot in the grave were living beings (not that very many of those kinds remain, but there are some that do). With Kindred of the East, this makes more sense, as they're essentially an alternate version of Risen with vampiric qualities. Of course, mummies start as Wraiths and Wraith remnants, but given that whole alive again versus dead and walking thing, I'm not sure that they would fit so neatly. Then again, maybe with an explanation of mechanical differences, they could? I know that I'd like to see some love for Mummy: the Resurrection, however it can be done.
            I disagree. The Kuei-Jin are only similar to the Risen on the surface level. Wraiths become Risen by choice, the Kuei-jin don't. The Risen by their nature are temporary, consumed with the life they had and finishing up unfinished business in the Skinlands. The Kuei-jin can exist for... well centuries or millennia. And they actively, through nearly all of the Dharmas, transcend their former humanity. And if a Risen is destroyed, they continue to exist as the wraith they were before becoming a Risen. A Kuei-jin is destroyed, they're destroyed.

            There's also the fact that Risen can only come back in their corpse if it's intact while for a Kuei-jin, if the corpse was destroyed or cremated, the pieces/ashes will come back together to form their body upon rising. And it's also possible for Kuei-jin to rise in other people's corpses.


            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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            • #7
              Lord Vil and AkatsukiLeader13:

              My thinking behind this is to preserve the unique concepts of these two game lines while making them accessible to new and old players. I can honestly say that I love all the splats from the original WoD. I want to see them get their day with an updated veneer, and it make sense to address them in Wraith; not to go too meta, but maybe addressing Wraith, Mummy, and Kuei-Jin in one book might make it more appealing broadly to the masses...you know, like purifying the imperfections through merging the best part of the game lines..


              Seriously though, Wr5 had a section on Risen and Orpheus. W20 talks about the Changing Breeds. Maybe clarifying how Shadowlands denizens operate in one book is the way to go

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              • #8
                Not to derail the conversation but here is a link to my solution about KotE and how I feel their anniversary edition should be handled.
                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...187#post193187

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                • #9
                  KotE, always felt like Risen with a little more Vampire in it, as they used some of the Wraith traits and then mixed in the East is better then the west stereotype that plagues the Old WoD lines, none of my players had any interest in playing it, Dark ages and Wild west Werewolf had a much stronger appeal.

                  KotE could have been a great game, i think having one book that bridges the gaps between Wraith, KotE, and Mummy, would be great as the games have a lot in common, and trying to Kick start them individually would be costly, and Geist Sin-eaters uses much of the wraith ideas.

                  as for Wr5th, we are still missing so much from the previous editions, that we should fill in those holes first and stay true to the game, wr20 or wr25 as is a lot closer to the truth of release, just came out.

                  Post GM6 i think was left open to the storytellers, i would like to see Wraith opened up like they did for Vtm, Wta, and Mta
                  so we could publish our own splat books.

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                  • #10
                    I mean, for me at least, a post-6GM game isn't that hard to conceive of;

                    -Dialing back the destruction of the 6GM a little bit isn't too hard: just say that it wrecked Stygia and a bunch of Necropoli, just not so much that it left a smoking hole in the ground.
                    -Having a Stygia game being about the slow recovery and rebuilding of the city. While all the remaining Hierarchy wraiths try to defend it from any opportunistic Heretics and Renegades.
                    -Same with any Necropoli, in addition to deciding to try to re-establish contact with Stygia or choosing "fuck it" and doing their own thing.

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                    • #11
                      In terms of the metaplot I agree with tasti man LH. Make it a bit like Europe after the fall of the Western Roman empire.

                      Mechanically, make things simpler and cleaner where possible. That goes for the underworld itself as well.

                      In terms of presentation, group wraiths by Legions rather than Guilds.

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                      • #12
                        Wraith has always been the odd game out in that it didn't do clean groupings. Because of that I'm not used to thinking of Wraiths in terms of Legions or Guilds, just Hierarch, Renegade, or Heretic.


                        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                        • #13
                          Yeah Wraith when it comes to factions is kind of...odd.

                          Going through Wr20, I get the impression that there's simultaneously so many factions, but nothing quite as mandatory as in the other gamelines. Like, being a Hierarch wraith, you need to pick between either being part of the military arm or the civilian arm. Guilds have a not-insubstantial amount of sub-factions within them. And because Heretics and Renegades aren't all united in a singular vision that you can have full freedom to make any Cult or Gang that you wish.

                          Even with the splats, Wraith is almost a splat-less game. While yes, you're initially defined by Legion due to cause of death, there aren't any inherent mechanical effects from joining one. Even with the Guilds, while yes favoring one particular Arcanos will get you called by the Guild associated by it, but you aren't necessarily a Guildwraith just by having it.

                          There's nothing as inherent as a Clan, a Tribe, or a Kith. You're just...your own wraith.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                            While yes, you're initially defined by Legion due to cause of death, there aren't any inherent mechanical effects from joining one.
                            That could be something that changed. Maybe things associated with a cause of death are banes to wraiths, something that empowers a shadow for a while or could trigger a harrowing for a weakened or injured wraith. Maybe the legions offer tools for dealing with these situations.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                              That could be something that changed. Maybe things associated with a cause of death are banes to wraiths, something that empowers a shadow for a while or could trigger a harrowing for a weakened or injured wraith. Maybe the legions offer tools for dealing with these situations.

                              I hope not. Part of the backdrop of Wraith is that many kinds of death fall into more than one Legion and there is constant wrangling to divide up the recently deceased. The Legions are a political distinction, not a metaphysical one.


                              Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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