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  • #76
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    With the way of how V5 was done, I'm not hopeful on how Wraith "5" will come about. Wraith barely even has a fanbase, so even with alot people going to disagree with any potential changes, I doubt any care would be considered. I'm just waiting to see how they're going to do Werewolf "5".
    That seems to be the way how things are going. Between the VR game coming out and with absolutely nothing on a Mage5 (I don't count that text adventure from a few years back) or a Changeling5, and (for me at least) an off the record talk with a freelancer who said that PDX wants to do Wraith next after Werewolf, seems like it.

    My concern is more "...do they have a plan to address Shadowguiding?" I assume they have one, and to not just throw it out, since the VR game is confirmed to have the Shadow be present.

    Otherwise...yeah. Weird decision that it's Wraith being pushed up. It's one of my favorite WoD gamelines but...I dunno about this.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by tasti man LH
      My concern is more "...do they have a plan to address Shadowguiding?"
      The best way (in my opinion of course) to handle Shadowguiding is to simply have the player roleplay their own Shadow along with their own Wraith. I know the core with how the Shadow is supposed to be done is unpredictability, but I find that since the Shadow is so integral to the player's Wraith and is often so personal, only the player would know how to roleplay them best. It also helps with pacing and allows the players more agency; even if that agency is self-sabotage via the Shadow for the interest sake of cool drama.

      It also makes sense for the players to have full control of their Shadow anyway, since base non-homebrew rules stipulate that the player remains control of their Wraith when the other player Shadowguiding succeeds a Catharsis roll.


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

        The best way (in my opinion of course) to handle Shadowguiding is to simply have the player roleplay their own Shadow along with their own Wraith. I know the core with how the Shadow is supposed to be done is unpredictability, but I find that since the Shadow is so integral to the player's Wraith and is often so personal, only the player would know how to roleplay them best. It also helps with pacing and allows the players more agency; even if that agency is self-sabotage via the Shadow for the interest sake of cool drama.

        It also makes sense for the players to have full control of their Shadow anyway, since base non-homebrew rules stipulate that the player remains control of their Wraith when the other player Shadowguiding succeeds a Catharsis roll.
        I disagree, for the sole reason that that doesn’t really solve the logistical issues of Shadowguiding.

        The above approach still has each player controlling two characters at once, with the only difference being a switch in who’s the Shadowguide, which is going to be a headache for players to juggle.

        Me personally, in terms of what I feel is the more likely course, is to just abstract the Shadow out to the point of being discrete dice rolls and nothing else, with any RP being optional at best.

        I admit I don’t really like that option, but honestly there isn’t really a good solution to fixing Shadowguiding without throwing it out.
        Last edited by tasti man LH; 03-20-2021, 03:01 PM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

          With the way of how V5 was done, I'm not hopeful on how Wraith "5" will come about. Wraith barely even has a fanbase, so even with alot people going to disagree with any potential changes, I doubt any care would be considered. I'm just waiting to see how they're going to do Werewolf "5".
          Not having a self-identified fanbase is usually a strength when it comes to new editions. It means the people who will pick it up are more likely to have an open mind.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

            The best way (in my opinion of course) to handle Shadowguiding is to simply have the player roleplay their own Shadow along with their own Wraith. I know the core with how the Shadow is supposed to be done is unpredictability, but I find that since the Shadow is so integral to the player's Wraith and is often so personal, only the player would know how to roleplay them best. It also helps with pacing and allows the players more agency; even if that agency is self-sabotage via the Shadow for the interest sake of cool drama.

            It also makes sense for the players to have full control of their Shadow anyway, since base non-homebrew rules stipulate that the player remains control of their Wraith when the other player Shadowguiding succeeds a Catharsis roll.
            That takes away from the dynamic of the game. The player does have a say in the design of their own Shadow, but having another player of ST play the Shadow brings an antagonism to the game that would be difficult to do if a player plays their own Shadow. Shadowplay is how players end up experiencing personal horror in the game, with the feeling that they are in conflict with their dark psyche which they cannot control.

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            • #81
              Since I'm not a designer working officially at Wraith (who knows if one day maybe), I'm thinking more of a homebrewy way for the moment. And at my mind I see a Wraith setting that since the mess at the Underworld, has the wraiths more closely playing with the Shadowlands, and less on the Tempest and Kingdoms. Maybe the Labyrinth has more ways into it, for the hell of wraiths, like it has grown bigger and more rooted.
              There should be more factions gameplay, especially with the Hierarchy shooked up, like a vanilla Anarch wraiths experience. The wraiths should feel more than ever like the Shadow is the bastard that keeps them "alive" (in a world falling apart) at the same time that is plotting against it. I think a hunger dice thing isn't necessary, but a Dark Compulsion would be interesting, and there can always be extra shadow dice being offered (especially after the wraith has rolled).

              I'm really not sure about how Morality/Integrity or even Harrowings could work, but I bet anything post-V5/W20 would be fun. Arcanoi could have alt. powers per level I think, it always gives that mysterious vibe to have something like that.

              You could say that since the Maelstrom there would not only be more 'things' from deep within the Underworld appearing more and more on the surface, like an ecology that was disturbed by the actions of men. With that, there should be more necromancers, hunters and the alike, beside the specters and plasmic monstrosities, giving the Wraith chronicles even more options.


              Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

              -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
                Since I'm not a designer working officially at Wraith (who knows if one day maybe), I'm thinking more of a homebrewy way for the moment. And at my mind I see a Wraith setting that since the mess at the Underworld, has the wraiths more closely playing with the Shadowlands, and less on the Tempest and Kingdoms. Maybe the Labyrinth has more ways into it, for the hell of wraiths, like it has grown bigger and more rooted.
                There should be more factions gameplay, especially with the Hierarchy shooked up, like a vanilla Anarch wraiths experience. The wraiths should feel more than ever like the Shadow is the bastard that keeps them "alive" (in a world falling apart) at the same time that is plotting against it. I think a hunger dice thing isn't necessary, but a Dark Compulsion would be interesting, and there can always be extra shadow dice being offered (especially after the wraith has rolled).

                I'm really not sure about how Morality/Integrity or even Harrowings could work, but I bet anything post-V5/W20 would be fun. Arcanoi could have alt. powers per level I think, it always gives that mysterious vibe to have something like that.

                You could say that since the Maelstrom there would not only be more 'things' from deep within the Underworld appearing more and more on the surface, like an ecology that was disturbed by the actions of men. With that, there should be more necromancers, hunters and the alike, beside the specters and plasmic monstrosities, giving the Wraith chronicles even more options.
                I think that the Shadow as the bastard that keeps you going is a good dynamic that keeps the shadow interesting. I don't know that Wraith needs an integrity system beyond Passions, though.

                Regarding the more Shadowlands focus gameplay:

                As a homebrew this works great. There was actually a fan project in the early 00s that mapped out Wraith set during the 6th Great Maelstrom. It was centered around isolated Necropoli completely cut off from Stygia weathering the stormwinds and spectres. It was quite good and would work well as a variant setting for Wraith.

                Orpheus too pictured a Wraith with a massive metaphysical shakeup and no Stygia and it was also good. It could get away with that because it was a different gameline with a different focus. (On a technical level, Orpheus was probably skinlands focused and the shadowlands weren't even accessible for much of it, but that's not really important here).

                I'd hope that the Tempest and the Labyrinth are not cut out or restricted in any 'official' capacity, though. Though there are things that could temporarily make them inaccessible they shouldn't be gone forever. Styiga, the Tempest, and all those other locations say a lot about Wraithly existence and they shouldn't be removed unless they are replaced with something that says even more.

                Shaking things up, though, is a good plan. As you say, it gives even more options.





                Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                  Styiga, the Tempest, and all those other locations say a lot about Wraithly existence and they shouldn't be removed unless they are replaced with something that says even more.
                  This is my objection to so many destruction of a setting, of turning an established setting into a post Apoco setting. These revisions take the interesting aspects of the setting, those portions which have something interesting to say about the setting and game, and replace them with nothing. The game and setting are not made more interesting, but less interesting. There is less to provide story hooks, less to be compelling for the players and the characters.

                  Getting rid of Styiga, the Tempest, and other core aspects of Wraith can work if they are replaced with something at least as interesting and as useful. The revisions Orphus imposed on the setting replaced Styiga, the Tempest, and other core aspects with gravel and ashes.

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                  • #84
                    To be fair, Orpheus was a very Skinland-centric game as opposed to WtO which was focused on the Underworld. It wasn't until the last or second last book that we actually got to see the Underworld.

                    Which is understandable given the nature of the game compared to it's predecessor.


                    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                    • #85
                      That's why I feel Orpheus never resonated with me. It tried to be too much like a Mage/Technocrat style game and little to do with being an atleast tenuous spirit-successor to Wraith. It also went down avenues with the lore and metaphysics of the Low Umbra I didn't like either.


                      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                        That's why I feel Orpheus never resonated with me. It tried to be too much like a Mage/Technocrat style game and little to do with being an atleast tenuous spirit-successor to Wraith. It also went down avenues with the lore and metaphysics of the Low Umbra I didn't like either.
                        Fair enough. Orpheus was always going to be a roll of the dice. I think if I had approached Orpheus as a replacement for Wraith, I would have been crushingly disappointed.

                        For me the dedication to the new metaphysics and the new theme made Orpheus a great setting. It followed its themes to the hilt and I appreciate that. It very clearly doesn't work with the rest of the WoD, though, especially Wraith. I like it as its own thing, but I have no interest in projectors dealing with established Necropoli and Stygian politics.


                        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                        • #87
                          I know it came roughly 5 years before the Time of Judgment that ended the rest of the lines, but I tend to treat End of Empire the same way that I treat Gehenna, Apocalypse, and Ascension: something happened, but it wasn't the setting-ending cosmic event that those other end-of-the-line books portrayed: the setting weathered the storm — figuratively, in terms of the other lines; literally, in the case of Wraith.

                          I do like the idea of Orpheus' projectors interacting with wraith society; but my own preference is to handle it more or less as a supplement for something akin to Ghost Hunters: a separate product That's designed to tackle death and the afterlife from the perspective of the living. In keeping with Wr20, I might go so far as to say that Orpheus is to Wraith as the Enchanted are to Changeling: they're mortals who partake in the world of the dead (to the point that they have some access to the Arcanoi) but are not dead. I'd ditch the end of the world plot that the original version of Orpheus had, though; the notion that the Afterlife has been wiped clean by the Maelstrom would go away. Though I'd keep the Storm itself, and just say that it wasn't quite as catastrophic as Orpheus portrays.

                          Heck, Ends of Empire ended with the notion that the worst of it was over, and that while it would take some time, the world of the dead would recover. It was only in other gamelines (Hunter, then Orpheus) that the catastrophic nature of it got dialed up.
                          Last edited by Dataweaver; 05-06-2021, 11:32 AM.


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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            I do like the idea of Orpheus' projectors interacting with wraith society; but my own preference is to handle it more or less as a supplement for something akin to Ghost Hunters: a separate product That's designed to tackle death and the afterlife from the perspective of the living. In keeping with Wr20, I might go so far as to say that Orpheus is to Wraith as the Enchanted are to Changeling: they're mortals who partake in the world of the dead (to the point that they have some access to the Arcanoi) but are not dead.
                            I think that's a really good way of describing what projectors would be in a regular Wraith game and why I don't find the concept any more than an idle curiosity. I love both games' take on the ghost story, but they do not play well together. Bringing projectors into Wraith requires stripping out much of what made the characters unique in Orpheus.








                            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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