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  • DeadMan
    started a topic Bush of Ghosts

    Bush of Ghosts

    I have some players that are interested in going to the Dark Kingdom of Ivory, but other then the content in the players Guide I can't find any write ups about it, or at least nothing that goes into real details. the Jade kingdom got two books, the Great war covers a little bit, but i was wondering if anyone else had some good suggestions.

    thx

  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    I've wondered if maybe the First Maelstrom was not a world wide thing, but one limited to Europe.

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  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    Is it perhaps the final fall of the larger Roman Empire, which had provided order and social framework to a large segment of the world's population for centuries? Not a case of the event in itself causing the maelstrom so much as being the last straw that triggered it after it had been building for ages?

    As for the 6th Maelstrom's cause, I thought it might be less the nukes themselves and more a combo of the number of people the Week of Nightmares killed plus big gateways to the Yin, Yang, and Yomi worlds being opened in close proximity and bleeding together before the nukes disrupted them.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

    The sixth also multiple causes. It wasn't just nuking Oblivion but nuking India.
    I am a fan of the idea of the fall/sacking of Rome wrongly being assigned as the cause of the 1st Maelstorm, because the Kingdom of iron did not know the actual cause.
    Yeah, there’s no way another in a long series of sackings of Rome measures up to the Black Death, Europeans/Smallpox ravaging the Americas, the First World War + Influenza, or the Second World War + Holocaust + first nuclear destruction of a city, as a cause for a Great Maelstrom. Something is off with the first.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-07-2020, 12:07 PM.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post

    We completely redid the American supernatural world to reflect at least the legacy of Indigenous institutions, particularly in Wraith. It helps that a lot of my group is Native. lol
    Your group should consider publishing your changes on Storytller Vault. I’d love an actually native-written revision to focus on those themes.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-07-2020, 03:43 AM.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by DeadMan View Post
    it would be great to have more details on Egyptian deadlands, as some of what i have read, say that the Mummies closed off their section of the Shadowlands. i know that an Anubis God-like Spirit came to the Ferrymen and gave them the Ritual of Severance, (Old Egyptian Risen are they the for runners to the Mummies??) i know that the new Mummy the Resurrection, covers some details but it is all post 6th Great Maelstrom.
    sorry for the Necro, but I’m bored and reading Wraith stuff.

    In Wraith terms, Amenti is a Far Shore, and Anubis is a Bright One. At one point Amenti reigned as the Dark Kingdom of Sand, controlling the Egyptian Shadowland the way Stygia controls the European shadowlands, but that era ended at the latest with the end of Egyptian polytheism and mummification of the dead - if not earlier with Stygia seizing it via Alexander or via Rome. Even before the Sixth Great Maelstrom, Amenti exists solely as a realm that the Undying descend to when their bodies are “dead”, and not reaping new Wraiths or controlling shadowland territory like the true Dark Kingdoms.

    i believe the area “closed off” you are recalling is Amenti, and not the Shadowland of Egypt itself, which along with the rest of northern-most Africa, the Levant, and Anatolia, fall under Stygia’s historic Roman governing claim.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-06-2020, 01:27 AM.

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  • DeadMan
    replied
    it would be great to have more details on Egyptian deadlands, as some of what i have read, say that the Mummies closed off their section of the Shadowlands. i know that an Anubis God-like Spirit came to the Ferrymen and gave them the Ritual of Severance, (Old Egyptian Risen are they the for runners to the Mummies??) i know that the new Mummy the Resurrection, covers some details but it is all post 6th Great Maelstrom.

    Leave a comment:


  • FallenEco
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

    There appears to be some recent evidence that the Black Death - which affected all of Eurasia, including China, India and the Middle East, to one degree or another - may have also hit Western Africa and Ethiopia.

    As for the First GM, I'm not really sure what was going on in Africa in the 5th century. Most of the stuff of note apparently happened in the 2nd century (the vanishing of the Nok culture in Nigeria, the Bantu peoples settling in Mozambique, the rise of the Aksum Empire).

    It's possible that the First may have actually been the result of some undisclosed fictional event, the way the Sixth GM was.
    The sixth also multiple causes. It wasn't just nuking Oblivion but nuking India.
    I am a fan of the idea of the fall/sacking of Rome wrongly being assigned as the cause of the 1st Maelstorm, because the Kingdom of iron did not know the actual cause.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
    On another note, I think one of the things that is missing from the other Dark Kingdoms is references to Great Maelstroms. The fall of the Roman Empire was pivotal in European history, sure, but if it could could cause a Great Maelstrom surely other events from around the world could as well. Possibly we could say that the First and Second Maelstroms were local to Europe and the Tempest around Stygian byways and give other regions their own.
    There appears to be some recent evidence that the Black Death - which affected all of Eurasia, including China, India and the Middle East, to one degree or another - may have also hit Western Africa and Ethiopia.

    As for the First GM, I'm not really sure what was going on in Africa in the 5th century. Most of the stuff of note apparently happened in the 2nd century (the vanishing of the Nok culture in Nigeria, the Bantu peoples settling in Mozambique, the rise of the Aksum Empire).

    It's possible that the First may have actually been the result of some undisclosed fictional event, the way the Sixth GM was.
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 02-12-2019, 10:56 PM.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied


    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    Yes, whatever the Shadowlands of not-Europe are, they should be as far from the ideal or myths as Stygia is from ideal and myths. But also, such composition should be written by someone who is ideally a member of the culture they are discussing, and not a well-meaning white dude from North America.
    I'd settle for a good faith attempt from someone who took the time to research the cultures and mythologies of the region they are writing about. Especially if they get editing help from appropriate sources.

    On another note, I think one of the things that is missing from the other Dark Kingdoms is references to Great Maelstroms. The fall of the Roman Empire was pivotal in European history, sure, but if it could could cause a Great Maelstrom surely other events from around the world could as well. Possibly we could say that the First and Second Maelstroms were local to Europe and the Tempest around Stygian byways and give other regions their own.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
    They are not faithful observances of tradition or faith, they are compromises and bulwarks against Oblivion. It's not like Stygia is very representative of western thoughts on the afterlife.
    Yes, whatever the Shadowlands of not-Europe are, they should be as far from the ideal or myths as Stygia is from ideal and myths. But also, such composition should be written by someone who is ideally a member of the culture they are discussing, and not a well-meaning white dude from North America.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    Part of it is a holdover of Dances with Wolves mania that was "a thing" back in the first half of the 90s, which also tended to color some well meaning but fairly dumb takes on Africa, Australia, and other places. It was compounded by the difficulty of research on certain topics back in the pre-internet days (when dinosaurs walked the first Bush administration). Even if you could find stuff about the African (or Native American) afterlife back then, a lot of it tended to be filtered through either New Age fluffiness or weird black nationalism angles. The fact that both groups tended to get lumped into one big continent wide culture didn't help any. (If you've ever seen some of the early Dungeons & Dragons pantheon books, with a single "Native American" pantheon, you'll have an idea of what I'm talking about. It's like having a "European" pantheon with Zeus and his twin sons Jesus and Thor going on a quest to find Excalibur. But at least it wasn't as bad as RIFTS Spirit West.)

    With Africa's restless dead, I think the best place to start is with Bantu culture and mythology in general, and then start looking into the specifics of people like the Yoruba, Shona, Igbo, Zulu, and Maasai. Also Ethiopia, with the awareness that it is somewhat different in a number of ways.
    Yeah, that's why I try not to be too much of a dick to WoD stuff.

    Looking at the overarching commonalities of the Bantu cultures would also be what I would do to get a general idea of how their society at large would be like, what their island(s) of stability in the Tempest would resemble (if they have them), how they view and even name arconi and other aspects of Wraith existence, etc. Then spread out from there to give local flavor and interpretation. Even in cannon they say the idea of a unified Dark Kingdom of Ivory is an illusion, which opens it up to have a variety of wraithly states on the continent. I'd also ditch the ghost animals or make them universal across the globe. There was never a good explanation provided for why this exception existed, at least from what I've read, and it felt very much like a romantic ideal of African tribal societies being closer to nature or some noble savagery trope like you've pointed out. I hope it was better than that, but there's a heap of evidence to the contrary, sadly.
    Last edited by Onkwe; 02-11-2019, 07:45 PM.

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  • tasti man LH
    replied
    And even then, the way how the Far Shores are depicted, they make them sound like fake afterlives.

    That they aren't the real afterlives pined for by the various Heretic groups, that they're all false realms created by wraiths who actively deny the true situation of the Underworld.

    Through that lens, it does make me pause at the notion that the depiction of the Underworld is far too favorable towards Western culture. The setting in general being Euro-American centric? Sure. But putting Eur-American culture on a pedestal? Not at all.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    I don't think Dark Kingdom's should be all that representative of the mythologies of a region. They are not faithful observances of tradition or faith, they are compromises and bulwarks against Oblivion. It's not like Stygia is very representative of western thoughts on the afterlife. The Dark Kingdom of Iron makes one or two major references to Greek mythology (Charon and Oboli) and carves out a distant but remote location (the far shores) as a place for traditional afterlifes to exist. Otherwise it is largely a story of politics and empire building and is far more affected by geopolitical events than myth and legend.

    Instead, mythology and culture should shape the history of the Kingdom. They should show us the places the Kingdom had trouble expanding into, the unexpected landmines and cultural clashes once they did, and the sudden new factions they had to deal with. Where possible they should also highlight where the Dark Kingdom is breaking down. The Fishers, despite being Christian, don't bring much Christianity to Stygia or its metaphysics. They are more known for the demands they made, their attempted coup, and how their actions indirectly unveiled the Shining Ones' corruption.

    It is entirely reasonable for a Dark Kingdom of Ivory to control all of Africa. What is unreasonable is the idea that Africa is so unified in thought that said Kingdom could do so easily.
    Last edited by Ramnesis; 01-24-2019, 03:12 PM.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Part of it is a holdover of Dances with Wolves mania that was "a thing" back in the first half of the 90s, which also tended to color some well meaning but fairly dumb takes on Africa, Australia, and other places. It was compounded by the difficulty of research on certain topics back in the pre-internet days (when dinosaurs walked the first Bush administration). Even if you could find stuff about the African (or Native American) afterlife back then, a lot of it tended to be filtered through either New Age fluffiness or weird black nationalism angles. The fact that both groups tended to get lumped into one big continent wide culture didn't help any. (If you've ever seen some of the early Dungeons & Dragons pantheon books, with a single "Native American" pantheon, you'll have an idea of what I'm talking about. It's like having a "European" pantheon with Zeus and his twin sons Jesus and Thor going on a quest to find Excalibur. But at least it wasn't as bad as RIFTS Spirit West.)

    With Africa's restless dead, I think the best place to start is with Bantu culture and mythology in general, and then start looking into the specifics of people like the Yoruba, Shona, Igbo, Zulu, and Maasai. Also Ethiopia, with the awareness that it is somewhat different in a number of ways.

    Leave a comment:

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