Insubstantiality Limits

[tasti man LH]

So, looking at Insubstantiality (Wr20, p 126) it...feels incomplete crunch-wise.

I'm ok with interpreting the "minimal expenditure of Corpus" as "spend 1 Corpus" but what gets me is determining duration. Is the wraith insubstantial for one turn? One scene? One hour? Or do they only use insubstantiality for every instance they need it: 1 Corpus spent for walking through one particular wall, but then needing to spend an additional 1 Corpus to walk across

Also, is Insubstantiality for use in the Skinlands, Shadowlands, or all of the Underworld's realms at once (Stygia, Dark Kingdoms, Labyrinth, etc)?

Scanning through the 1e-2e corebooks to find their counterpart write-ups haven't yielded much expansion.

[Ramnesis]

So, looking at Insubstantiality (Wr20, p 126) it...feels incomplete crunch-wise.

I'm ok with interpreting the "minimal expenditure of Corpus" as "spend 1 Corpus" but what gets me is determining duration. Is the wraith insubstantial for one turn? One scene? One hour? Or do they only use insubstantiality for every instance they need it: 1 Corpus spent for walking through one particular wall, but then needing to spend an additional 1 Corpus to walk across

Also, is Insubstantiality for use in the Skinlands, Shadowlands, or all of the Underworld's realms at once (Stygia, Dark Kingdoms, Labyrinth, etc)?

Scanning through the 1e-2e corebooks to find their counterpart write-ups haven't yielded much expansion.

Check Wraith 2nd, Page 232. Incorporeality lasts a number of turns equal to the wraith's stamina. It also only applies to skinlands objects. If Wraith in the Shadowlands is standing on a road and a Skinlands truck passes through him, he will take 1 corpus level of damage. He will go incorporeal for a few turns, during which time he can walk through Skinlands walls and other other Skinlands objects that pass through him will cause him no damage. However, if a spectre (or anything else in the Shadowlands) hits him he will still take damage from that.

Also, if we reverse the order of events and the wraith is hit by a spectre first he will not go incorporeal. That only happens when he interacts with something from the Skinlands. For that reason, wraiths don't go incorporeal in the Tempest or the Labyrinth or anywhere other than the Shadowlands. There's nothing there that can make them.

[tasti man LH]

Check Wraith 2nd, Page 232. Incorporeality lasts a number of turns equal to the wraith's stamina. It also only applies to skinlands objects. If Wraith in the Shadowlands is standing on a road and a Skinlands truck passes through him, he will take 1 corpus level of damage. He will go incorporeal for a few turns, during which time he can walk through Skinlands walls and other other Skinlands objects that pass through him will cause him no damage. However, if a spectre (or anything else in the Shadowlands) hits him he will still take damage from that.

Also, if we reverse the order of events and the wraith is hit by a spectre first he will not go incorporeal. That only happens when he interacts with something from the Skinlands. For that reason, wraiths don't go incorporeal in the Tempest or the Labyrinth or anywhere other than the Shadowlands. There's nothing there that can make them.

...aaaand that's what tripped me up.

Reading through the Insubstantiality write-up as is, it doesn't contain any direct references to the Corporeal States section, and thus I didn't make the connection that that's what it was referring to. Probably a reminder this section was added in haste as a response to errata...

Either way, thanks.

[DeadMan]

Spectres can barely see the living, its much harder for them to pierce the shroud, so if they can't see the living do they still become incorporeal? i have ran both wraith games and Spectres games, in the older Dark Reflections & DoomSlayers books, in these they speak about how Spectres see and how much worse it is then wraiths.

so simple question, if a Spectre is in the mall, (or almost anywhere) the cars and people do they cause a lot of bashing or does it not affect them?

[Matt the Bruins fan]

I think when in the Shadowlands spectres still see physical objects and landscape features in the living world, just ruined/decayed versions of them. So that would probably be as for normal wraiths despite the cosmetic differences. But I don't think they perceive living people without using Arcanoi unless said people are close to death... likely most of the inhabitants of a mall would pass through them (and vice versa) without effect or either party being aware of the other's existence.

[Ramnesis]

I don't think I've ever seen an analysis of this, so I'd default to whatever is good for the story you are trying to tell. Think about how much you want Spectres to interfere with the living, how prevalent you want them to be in the Shadowlands, and if you think Wraiths should be able to evade a pack of Shades by diving into traffic. Decide accordingly.

[DeadMan]

it could also be a give away for wraiths that are wondering if the Restless they are watching is a Spectre or a Wraith, but it is also said that a Doppelganger is much closer to a wraith then any other Spectre so they as long as they maintain there fetters should be given a pass, raise the shroud but view at least outlines of the living.

or as Ramnesis said play it how you want your game to go.

[adambeyoncelowe]

I would rule that a spectre that can't see Skinlands objects and people is immune to the 'rule of ouch', because they don't exist on that other level of reality without special powers. Spectres than can see the Skinlands would lose a corpus point as normal.

[DeadMan]

in an all Spectre game, yes they should ignore the skin-lands entirely, but in a mixed game, where you have a doppelganger infiltrator them ignoring the skin-lands would give them away.