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What is your opinion of Demon's connection to Wraith?

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  • What is your opinion of Demon's connection to Wraith?

    For those few who don't know, Demon: The Fallen explored; or perhaps one should say "retconned"; the origins of the Underworld of Wraith. According to it, the Underworld was the creation of the Alabaster Legion, there was a Slayer named Charon; who may or may have not been the same Charon who would become the Emperor of Stygia; who yielded a demon-made scythe named Siklos; which may or may have not been the same scythe used by the aforementioned emperor; the Neverborn are implied to possibly be the last demons of the Alabaster Legion, the Tempest was created by the sacrifice of a Devil, the Ferrymen are actually the souls of the Nephilim, etc.

    I'd like to know what the fans of Wraith think of these developments. Do you like these backgrounds? Do you feel that they are unnecessary and cheapen the setting? Do you completely ignore them?

    Also, have you ever explored these ideas in your games?
    Last edited by HardestadtTheEvenYounger; 06-27-2019, 09:04 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
    For those few who don't know, Demon: The Fallen explored; or perhaps one should "retconned"; the origins of the Underworld of Wraith. According to it, the Underworld was the creation of the Alabaster Legion, there was a Slayer named Charon; who may or may have not been the same Charon who would become the Emperor of Stygia; who yielded a demon-made scythe named Siklos; which may or may have not been the same scythe used by the aforementioned emperor; the Neverborn are implied to possibly be the last demons of the Alabaster Legion, the Tempest was created by the sacrifice of a Devil, the Ferrymen are actually the souls of the Nephilim, etc.

    I'd like to know what the fans of Wraith think of these developments. Do you like these backgrounds? Do you feel that they are unnecessary and cheapen the setting? Do you completely ignore them?

    Also, have you ever explored these ideas in your games?
    I don't really feel there's any retconning. Charon the demon built Haven which became the underworld. Later, the Lady of Fate named Charon the Mycenaean as the person to build Stygia and this separate was stated by one of the authors or at least the wiki suggests so.Page 183-184 of Houses of the Fallen reads like a comedy of errors regarding confusing one for the other. Now the mention of the Nephilim turned ferrymen....

    What I do think this does is give a specific case of names having power. That "Charon" carries power in the underworld as a name.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
      For those few who don't know, Demon: The Fallen explored; or perhaps one should say "retconned"; the origins of the Underworld of Wraith. According to it, the Underworld was the creation of the Alabaster Legion, there was a Slayer named Charon; who may or may have not been the same Charon who would become the Emperor of Stygia; who yielded a demon-made scythe named Siklos; which may or may have not been the same scythe used by the aforementioned emperor; the Neverborn are implied to possibly be the last demons of the Alabaster Legion, the Tempest was created by the sacrifice of a Devil, the Ferrymen are actually the souls of the Nephilim, etc.

      I'd like to know what the fans of Wraith think of these developments. Do you like these backgrounds? Do you feel that they are unnecessary and cheapen the setting? Do you completely ignore them?

      Also, have you ever explored these ideas in your games?

      Actually the writer of that section mentioned in the old forum that the Demon Charon isn't the same as the Wraith Charon. The Wraith Charon was named after him as an old Lord of the Underworld's name would have power, and in Wraith Nhudri made his Scythe Siklos. Now Nhudri is clearly Nhudriel however, so maybe he just repaired Siklos, or made a new Siklos or he created the original Siklos. One thing never mentioned in the books but writers have said they wanted to reveal was Anubis is actually Abel.


      But I like the backstory. I want more mythic history for Wraith. I want Demons in the Maelstrom. One thing I wish they got to talk about in Demon the Fallen is the beings that existed in the Primordial Darkness before the Light. That and Lilith.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

        One thing never mentioned in the books but writers have said they wanted to reveal was Anubis is actually Abel.
        I was not aware of that. Personally, I'm not really fond of it for two reasons:

        First, I think Eve's tale is one of the most tragic and yet inspiring of the whole WOD. For her to remain behind all alone while Adam and Abel moved on to whatever exists beyond death, just for the love of Caine, would be tear jerking enough. But the fact that she used her time to create a society for the Restless Dead of the Western world just makes her that much more of an amazing character and I think that this narrative is compromised if Abel also stayed behind and they have been working together.

        Furthermore, I think it heightens the horror and monstrosity of Caine's actions if Abel, even after over ten thousand years, remains a entirely pure and guileless soul, not the masterful conspirator that Anubis is. Which is why I think that the best use of Abel was in one of the Gehenna scenarios where he appears just to tell Caine that he forgives him.

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        • #5
          Seeing as I'm a huge fan of Demon, I don't mind the connection. Slayers becoming Ferrymen doesn't bother me. The lack of a real afterlife and the creation of an underworld to simulate that, is kind of cool. Also explains why the Far Shores are the way they are.

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          • #6
            Personally, I am not a fan and it goes against the Wraith canon as established in Wraith. The origin of the Ferryman is already defined in Ends of Empire. The origins of Charon is also established. As far as "speculation" goes on the wiki, it expresses the ideas of a writer who worked on Demon, not on Wraith, so of course ,it reinforces a connection that was added later to the Demon game line. Thankfully, it is not in Wraith. I totally can't stand the idea, IMHO, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as far as valuing the original line. 'Tis my opinion, and I am sticking by it!
            Last edited by Khaleesi; 07-06-2019, 08:03 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Khaleesi View Post
              Personally, I am not a fan and it goes against the Wraith canon as established in Wraith. The origin of the Ferryman is already defined in Ends of Empire. The origins of Charon is also established. As far as "speculation" goes on the wiki, it expresses the ideas of a writer who worked on Demon, not on Wraith, so of course ,it reinforces a connection that was added later to the Demon game line. Thankfully, it is not in Wraith. I totally can't stand the idea, IMHO, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as far as valuing the original line. 'Tis my opinion, and I am sticking by it!
              Well said.

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              • #8
                But again it doesn't contradict that much because the writer has said he didn't intend for the Wraith Charon to be the same as the Demon Charon. And I can see Ancient Egyptian Ferrymen being a hold over from the Slayer Ferrymen, who were replaced by Nephilim Ferrymen.

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                • #9
                  Actually I think that Demon and Wraith can be heavily connected, and this should be especially true for the fallen from the 7th house.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

                    I was not aware of that. Personally, I'm not really fond of it for two reasons:

                    First, I think Eve's tale is one of the most tragic and yet inspiring of the whole WOD. For her to remain behind all alone while Adam and Abel moved on to whatever exists beyond death, just for the love of Caine, would be tear jerking enough. But the fact that she used her time to create a society for the Restless Dead of the Western world just makes her that much more of an amazing character and I think that this narrative is compromised if Abel also stayed behind and they have been working together.

                    Furthermore, I think it heightens the horror and monstrosity of Caine's actions if Abel, even after over ten thousand years, remains a entirely pure and guileless soul, not the masterful conspirator that Anubis is. Which is why I think that the best use of Abel was in one of the Gehenna scenarios where he appears just to tell Caine that he forgives him.
                    Yeah, Eve/the Lady of Fate is a tragically awesome and one that largely gets forgotten about despite being actually quite important. It is kind of understandable as the only line where she is important in in WtO which has never had the mass appeal of the Big Three. And even in WtO she was overt than Charon and the other Deathlords, making her presence more felt than seen, and even then more in the background lore and history of the Stygia than the modern day of the Underworld. Yet without her, there wouldn't be a Stygia or a Charon.

                    Personally I like to think that when we see her at the end of Ends of Empire, departing with that ancient Ferryman, she's actually finally moving on. To find that the peace she has long waited for and long deserved.

                    Though Abel does actually appear in WoD, in the final book of Orpheus.

                    ...Well maybe. It's made intentionally vague and even Abel himself admits that he's not entirely sure what he is, whether he is Abel or the embodiment of the concept of murder/murder victims.


                    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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