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Setting up bases in the Middle and High Umbra

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  • Setting up bases in the Middle and High Umbra

    How doable is this as a Wraith?

  • #2
    Quite frankly, the stuff of legend. Access to the other Umbrae isn't in their innate capabilities or their Arcanoi, and the Underworld doesn't have easy access either.


    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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    • #3
      According to Masters of the Art, archmasters have the tendancy of bringing wraiths in the other umbras.

      Outside of that, the world tree's roots enter the underworld, while it's branchs enter the other umbra, a wraith may find the place where those roots touch the tempest.

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      • #4
        What about using Artificers to imbue a soulcrafted airship or even using Relic Artifact airships like the Hinderbrg to sail to the Middle and High Umbra from the Shadowlands/Pneumbra? Also all the lost/destroyed aircraft during WWI and WWII?

        Edit: Also (Barring you roughly ignore the 1999 Six Maelstorm to continue a Wraith game into the 21st century) what about modern aircraft? I'm sure the Hierarchy would already Reap former aircraft engineers gifted with Inhabit to construct modern fighter Jets or Helicopters to go up into the Middle and High Umbra.
        Last edited by Shakanaka; 10-18-2019, 11:34 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
          What about using Artificers to imbue a soulcrafted airship or even using Relic Artifact airships like the Hinderbrg to sail to the Middle and High Umbra from the Shadowlands/Pneumbra? Also all the lost/destroyed aircraft during WWI and WWII?

          Edit: Also (Barring you roughly ignore the 1999 Six Maelstorm to continue a Wraith game into the 21st century) what about modern aircraft? I'm sure the Hierarchy would already Reap former aircraft engineers gifted with Inhabit to construct modern fighter Jets or Helicopters to go up into the Middle and High Umbra.
          At least within Wr20, no Arcanoi allows a wraith to go beyond the Low Umbra/Underworld. At least, nothing officially statted.

          That would honestly probably be something in the purview of Arcanoi that's Rating 6+.

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          • #6
            Barring imbuements then, soulcrafted flight vehicles aren't Arcanoi though. Can't relic or soulcrafted planes, helicopters, jets, and airships travel up into the Middle and High Umbras?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
              Barring imbuements then, soulcrafted flight vehicles aren't Arcanoi though. Can't relic or soulcrafted planes, helicopters, jets, and airships travel up into the Middle and High Umbras?
              On their own? No.

              As far as I can tell there's nothing saying that they're able to, and given what's been described about the Underworld/Low Umbra's metaphysics, I don't think they can.

              Out of all the parts of the Umbra, the Low Umbra is mentioned as being one of the hardest places to enter and to leave. It's been reinforced throughout the Wraith books how hard it is for Wraiths to get across the Shroud, and those that are can't stay long. Plus, I'm not even sure the wraith, relics, and artifacts can even survive the trip to or even existing in the other Umbra. Beings representing death and decay tend to not do well in places filled with so much life. At least not without outside help.

              It's not easy for the other WoD splats either: for instance with M20 mages, to go by themselves with the Agama Sojourn rite, which mechanically requires Entropy 4/Spirit 3/Life 2; a Sphere spread that only the most powerful of mages would have...which as a reminder, is the rite that puts mages in a near-death state. And how if you want to move from the Low Umbra to the Middle, you need to up it to Entropy 5/Spirit 5 if you're using the Agama rite, or Entropy 5/Mind 5. So even mages can't just pop in and out whenever they want to.

              Nvm that most wraiths wouldn't have any reason to know of the existence of Middle or High Umbra, and would have no reason to seek it out. And that the wraiths that do interact with with the other WoD splats regularly are probably in the minority, and wouldn't be inclined to share that knowledge en masse with other wraiths, unless if they want to get turned into furniture for violating the Dictum Mortuum.

              (not to mention whatever crossover information is out there, I would still take it with a grain of salt considering the amount of inconsistencies, revisions, and retcons that occurred throughout WoD's lifespan. After all, there was a time when Malkavians could apparently see and interact with Changeling's chimerical reality...which is not something that's been carried forward in any way)

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              • #8
                Well its hard for Mages to enter the Umbra because they are still human despite their Awakened reality. Thats why they need such lengths to even enter the other Umbrae. This isn't the case with most other splats though.

                Vampires with Auspex 5 can enter into the other Umbra easily through astral projection. The Nagaraja as a staple of their Embrace are thought how to enter the Underworld/Low Umbra aswell. Not to mention the whole Tal'mahe'Ra have their entire Headquarters in the Low Umbra (Enoch), with the sect housing other clans than the Nagaraja. With this in mind members of this sect even without Auspex 5 can pass through these realms with ease, even with their physical bodies like Kuei-Jin. Its also safe to assume even unaffiliated Tal'mahe'Ra if thought or learned through their own means with occultist can easily pass considering their already dead (unlike mages). Tremere, Old Tzimisce, Baali, and Ahrimemes also have spiritual abilities if I remember.

                Werewolves and other shape-changers can also side-step into other Umbral planes or just walk through moon paths inbuilt inside their Caerns. This is with the knowledge that all Fera are half-spirits.

                Much like Tal'mahe'Ra affiliated Kindred or just Nagaraja, Kuei-Jin can enter the Shadowlands and Low Umbra with ease aswell.

                Also isn't the Middle and High Umbra existences of pure spirit?
                Last edited by Shakanaka; 10-18-2019, 06:35 PM.

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                • #9
                  Let's not forget the Yama Kings. The Thousand Hells are both in the Yin world (the underworld) and in the Yang world (the Middle Umbra). An entreprising wraith could go in one, them climb the Scarlet Path fo another Hell in the Middle Umbra and then... well, finding a way to escape, because frankly, I don't see any Yama King make it easy for a wraith to escape it's grasp.

                  Also, I don't think Deathsight or many Arcanoi working as usual, if at all, in another umbra.

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                  • #10
                    There's on crucial difference between spirits and wraiths that I think you're missing - spirits are alive and wraiths are dead (or possibly just the memories of the living). Wraiths are not a type of spirit they are something else and I'm not sure it's even possible for them to enter the umbral realms at all.

                    Although if it's a crossover game and that's what you want then go for it, but as far as the canon goes it's a no no.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                      Vampires with Auspex 5 can enter into the other Umbra easily through astral projection.
                      Ok, I can't get through all of this right now, but I'd like to point out:

                      -Auspex 5 also mentions that there's a silver cord that connects the astral form to the physical body...which sounds exactly like Mage's astral projection. The one that you need Mind 4 to do. So reading between the lines, it sounds like Auspex 5 is supposed to be that equivalent. And that over in Mage, they establish that astral projecting in of itself isn't enough to grant access to the Underworld.

                      -The V20 Auspex 5 write-up also pointedly notes that the astral projected form isn't considered a "ghost" when it comes to necromancer stuff...which while not mechanical, seems to definitively confirm "no, you can't use Astral Projection by itself to enter the Low Umbra/Underworld".
                      Last edited by tasti man LH; 10-20-2019, 01:36 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Actually, there might be ways around all of this. Beyond the Barriers for Mage presented entities that were similar to the Ferrymen in the Afterworlds in the High Umbra. Considering that the entire Egyptian underworld might be there as well, the Ferrymen might have been taught special Arcanoi, particularly tempered arts, from Anubis. Something along the lines of Argos 5 with Mnemosyne (for High Umbra), Pandemonium (Middle), and Phantasm (Dreaming), could be possible. Alternatively, if a Wraith could entire the Skinlands (via Embody, being a Risen, etc.), they cold then use one of the previous Arcanoi to entire the right layer of the Umbra more easily, as there would be fewer metaphysical barriers to cross. Regardless, either form could be imbued into an Artifact/Relic and then that could be used for mass transit. The Ferrymen use something quite similar already with their rafts and such.
                        On the other hand, there might be a simpler way to enter the other layers of the Umbra. Certain trods from Changeling are said to enter the other layers of the Umbra already. Who's to say that there aren't Byways that do the same? There might be problems using them, such as being guarded or hard to find, but them there would be no limit to where a Wraith could go. In this case, no special vehicle would be required. Almost anything could be used that would work on a regular Byway. Once there, building a base might be hard, as the rules for ephemera are different than for plasm, but something could be done. Also, the locations such Byways would lead to might not be suitable to having a base. The Abyss come to mind, as almost nothing is found there, but it is close enough to the Underworld that there would be many Byways leading there.

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                        • #13
                          I would say it is more unique than impossible - the PCs would be the first to do so.

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                          • #14
                            I vaguely remember reading something about spectres being able to travel... somewhere in the Tempest or Labyrinth and cross into the Deep Umbra, then double back into the other layers of the Umbra. It was in the 90s and several editions ago, so I don't recall the specifics. I don't think there were any rules presented for how they would interact with beings made of ephemera rather than ectoplasm.

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                            • #15
                              I know this is late, but isn't Ephemera a nWoD thing?

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