Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How would you handle 6+ Ghostly Traits

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How would you handle 6+ Ghostly Traits

    One of the issues I have with Wraith is they handwave impossible traits for NPCs, they exist but PCs can't achieve them because of reasons, and their are no real rules for them and they aren't satisfactory.

    But Wraiths have no Powerlevel trait like Dharma or Essence.

    Ghosts of an arbitrary age are just allowed to break the stat rules for some reason and only sometimes. And some Wraiths like Charon are able to go beyond Arcanos power limit.

    I was influenced before with "I Hate All Life's" house rules on Rank 6 Arcanoi and Alloyed Arcanoi.

    But besides saying ghosts are limited on traits until they are dead for over a century I need ideas on how to define their limits.

    I've also had ideas for things like Ghostly Mantles of Death to represent Ghosts who grow beyond mortal powers, these could be like the Deathlords Masks and taking up Titles instead of Names.

    I also feel we need a few more Arcanos, to represent things like making your own heaven and hell, and demonic and angelic powers.

    So there are a few methods. The 6th rank Arcanos could be a power that just makes weaker powers easier and more powerful and in greater scale. And Alloyed Arcanoi are usually limited to two Arcanoi but they are interesting and mostly un explored. There is also the idea a different set of Arch powers that are separate. The arch Arcanoi don't even need to be 1-5 they could be like 1-3 and you need to meet certain prerequisites before you can achieve them, like losing your name and gaining a title.

    It just felt very hmmm when we are told Charon is a cool badass because of reasons.

    But I want ways to represent the Deathlords, and even Hekatonhires and Onceborn. We had the books talk that spectres evolve into Hekatonhires by eating souls, usually each other, they start to swell into giant monsters in the bestial Hekatonhire state and then transcend that into the deathgod Onceborn state. But the books do a lot of ignoring Hekatonhires or these swollen Specters I know they are mighty and could kill you blah blah but they are interesting so I would like to explore them even if you shouldn't fight them.

    And Ghosts seem to be missing Ritual magic, I personally allow Sorcery because why not its fun. but the closest they have to flexible ritual magic is the creation of Artifacts.

    What are your thoughts on how Ghosts grow beyond their default limits?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    *rubs bridge of nose*

    Remind me again which books that describe the feats of Charon, Deathlords, etc that sounds like the realm of +6 Arcanoi?

    Please don't forget page numbers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh Cool Snark!
      Charon Solo's Garool, Garool is the Pasiphae of Charon so his dark Mirror and he was an apocalyptic Kaiju.

      I am not giving you page numbers I don't have my books out, and that is not how this works, you can request page numbers and that is a different matter but you don't go, Facepalm idjut you are reading it wrong give me page numbers.

      But risen talks about Hades being a Godlike Ghost rather then an actual God, The Lady of Fate is clearly special and can do things others can't. And even without his Siklos Charon is treated as special which I'm not the biggest fan of. And the Deathlords when stated are given stats above 5. Yanluo Wang was described as essentially just an old experienced Ghost that was propped up by the Emperor for Legitimacy. But he also seems beefy.

      Nudhri is implied to not be the Ghost of a man, before Demon I could see him as a Nephalim, but Demon implies he is the Fallen Angel Nhudriel. He has done things beyond wraiths, for one he has displayed superstrength like wrecking his workshop with his giant hammer.

      Anubis is beyond the Wraith System while also passing down knowledge directly too wraiths. In Mummy he is one of their Gods, one of the Gehenna writers had cut content ideas of reveal that Abel is actually Anubis.

      The Dragon that hides in the Image of the Jade Emperor was able to physically beat an army of Wraiths, as well as a few dozen of the Immortal Guardsmen.

      If you don't like the subject its perfectly fine to just pop in and say this isn't my bag but you do you, but not super necessary to try to crap on thread at its inception.

      I'm talking about it would be nice to get a toolbox on certain beings. Yes I can just hand wave but it would be nice to get a few toys to portray the beings in between a Spectre becoming a Onceborn.

      Or conversely if you want to contribute why don't you give your reasoning of why you specifically don't want any sort of system for older more powerful ghosts, plasmics and Misc beings as well as why it would be a net negative if others recieved this?


      It is a time for great deeds!

      Comment


      • #4
        Because to be perfectly honest, I feel like trying to turn Wraith into a power fantasy misses the point of the whole gameline.

        And that I feel like people are way too tunnel-visioned on the god feats when considering...everything else that these characters did. Charon united the Iron Kingdom (originally) through his wisdom and insight. The Jade Emperor won the Asian Underworld not because he was a super-being, but because he was cunning enough to bring an army with him to conquer everything he saw because no one was prepared for him. Things that did not lean exclusively on wielding God powers.

        I ask for page references because I can't find these purported stat lists of many of these NPCs. The one that has been brought to my attention, the Spectre general Coldheart, in his stat-write-up in Ends of Empire...he doesn't have a single Arcanoi above rating 4. As for the Hades story...I'm not particularly inclined to put too much stock into it, considering that it's presented in the framing of "but this is another story that may/may not be true..."

        And in a game that stresses the important of letting go and moving on...why would a wraith want to stay longer in the Underworld and put on airs of being a god?

        (which even then stat lists tend to be eyebrow-raising on consistency: see Mage and characters listed with Arete 7-8 yet only have Spheres as high as rating 4)

        Besides, you can't be an empowered badass if you have the Shadow in the back of your head making you feel bad for accruing that power in the first place.

        Comment


        • #5
          I got to disagree with a lot of those premises.

          By this reckoning we shouldn't have anything beyond the shadowland, and wraith should only concentrate on that.

          And really I wouldn't call have total temporal power to bring an empires worth of magical resources into the underworld with you as cunning, it seems the opposite of cunning, very very blunt.

          And it doesn't make sense to make it seem like all wraiths are a monolithic type of being that all share the same sensibilities...

          And the reference I make to Hades was revealing the truth behind the stories, because the stories don't say Hades is a ghost, it says he is the brother of Zues and a Born a God Eternal. The revelation was the stories were exaggerations and he was just a strong ghost of a dead man.


          It is a time for great deeds!

          Comment


          • #6
            I just make them up and reference V20 on how to balance each level of my homebrewed 6+ Arcanoi with every rank up.


            Jade Kingdom Warrior

            Comment


            • #7
              I think Wraith it's an extremely bleak game, hence I think "epic" characters should be epic in very dark ways. Even Anubis, while depicted as impossibly powerful in Mummy, it's a being of mystery more than epic fantasy.

              I like the idea of tying this to titles more than age(Vampire). It would give them a unique feeling, and it has the potential of being pretty gothic. However, I don't know enough about Wraith to help on how to implement it.

              Originally posted by tasti man LH
              Besides, you can't be an empowered badass if you have the Shadow in the back of your head making you feel bad for accruing that power in the first place.
              Perhaps I don't understand how Shadows are supposed to work ... but why HAS the Shadow to make you feel bad about accruing power?.

              I mean, of course, I can see making you feel bad for accruing power as a possibility for some Shadows, but I can equally see a Shadow wanting you to obsess with becoming "an empowered badass".

              That Shadow it's going to make you feel bad because you're never powerful enough. You're weak, you need more power. Perhaps when you get 7 across the board you will be able to throw yourself to Oblivion and defeat it. Yes, that's such a good idea. Not a good idea?, well then don't cry next time you're unable to save someone from an army of Specters, you pathetic coward.
              Remember Jhon?, you could have saved Jhon if you had a just a little more power ... And it's such a small sacrifice, nothing that an empowered badass can't control...

              I would imagine a smart Shadow's approach could be to tempt you to get power knowing that having said power you're going to take stupid risks, that you will try to solve problems forcefully, which more often than not generates more problems (and then maybe you will need more power?, power that the Shadow can provide at the cheap cost of your sanity?).

              Wouldn't that be a valid concept?
              Last edited by Aleph; 02-06-2020, 10:27 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                I think Wraith it's an extremely bleak game, hence I think "epic" characters should be epic in very dark ways. Even Anubis, while depicted as impossibly powerful in Mummy, it's a being of mystery more than epic fantasy.

                I like the idea of tying this to titles more than age(Vampire). It would give them a unique feeling, and it has the potential of being pretty gothic. However, I don't know enough about Wraith to help on how to implement it.


                Perhaps I don't understand how Shadows are supposed to work ... but why HAS the Shadow to make you feel bad about accruing power?.

                I mean, of course, I can see making you feel bad for accruing power as a possibility for some Shadows, but I can equally see a Shadow wanting you to obsess with becoming "an empowered badass".

                That Shadow it's going to make you feel bad because you're never powerful enough. You're weak, you need more power. Perhaps when you get 7 across the board you will be able to throw yourself to Oblivion and defeat it. Yes, that's such a good idea. Not a good idea?, well then don't cry next time you're unable to save someone from an army of Specters, you pathetic coward.
                Remember Jhon?, you could have saved Jhon if you had a just a little more power ... And it's such a small sacrifice, nothing that an empowered badass can't control...

                I would imagine a smart Shadow's approach could be to tempt you to get power knowing that having said power you're going to take stupid risks, that you will try to solve problems forcefully, which more often than not generates more problems (and then maybe you will need more power?, power that the Shadow can provide at the cheap cost of your sanity?).

                Wouldn't that be a valid concept?
                That's the nail on the head. Only some shadows would approach you being strong as bad others would egg you on.

                Yeah I'm personally thinking raising above human level traits is a side effect of embracing a title. You lose your name and therefore your legacy and in exchange you old limiters are replaced by your growing mantle. The side effect is those that lose their name probably involves losing Fetters to the human world, and thus your are more bound as a creature of the Underworld.


                It is a time for great deeds!

                Comment


                • #9
                  On the topic of Wraith's "not supposed to be getting powerful". There is a sidebar in Wraith 20th anniversary of an optional rule for Wraith's learning new Arcanoi that can reduce the cost of a new do to 1 xp. It literally states Wraith is a game where the PC's can become as powerful as the GM wants, there are no issues with them becoming ultra powerful, because the issues they face cannot be solved with pure power.

                  So I've got no idea where this "A powerful Wraith isn't in theme with the game" is coming from.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It is a per Art cost, also since they stack, if the player buys Specialized first he can't then go back and buy Talent, you can go up but not down on the scale. also because the cost can get high, i did allow Mentors to play a part, but only if they had the same kind of add-on, meaning a mentor that has a Talent can teach that but not Mastery. also on the note of Mentors, if a character has an Arcanos of level 4, then when he teaches what he knows to someone else, he gets 4 dice of mentor because of his knowledge of the Arcanos.



                    Talent: 3 xp + 1/LV of the Art:
                    this allows you to have a knack for the art in question, giving you a bonus of +/- 1 to the Difficulty or to the cost but this can never lower the cost to zero, also all arts have a minimum difficulty of 4.

                    Specialize: 7 XP + 1 per Level of Art:
                    This stacks with Talent, and goes beyond by giving, where Talent gave either a Diff or cost bonus, Specialize give the bonus to the Diff and the Cost, and changes the art effect in a minor way, making it more Personal, The player has to record the effect on paper as once it is set, it cant change.

                    Mastery: 10 XP + 1per Level of Art:
                    At this level, you have greater influence over the arts affects, this gives a secondary minor affect or improved version of the arts effect, plus another reduction in cost, Difficulty and even the Angst that is generated by the arts effects.

                    Note: if you pay for the add-on when you are learning the art, it cost the above listed price, but if you chose to get this after you have learned the art, an extra cost of 3 XP on top of the above cost.

                    EXAMPLE:
                    Castigate: Level 3 Purify
                    Talent: -1 to the Diff of Targets Permanent Angst.
                    Specialized: another -1 to Diff, Healing hands, hands glow with the light of Purity, target loses 1 TA without corpus cost.
                    Mastery: another -1 to Diff (total of -3) Light of Purity, Pardoners entire body glows with the light of Purity, the target also glows while under the effect of the art, the target also loses the casters Castigate Level in TA without corpus lose before the dice are cast.

                    this allowed the players to have an invested interest in the arts they learn and making them personal, because of the cost of these add-ons, the players weren't able to abuse it to badly.

                    hope this helps.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hmm this is an interesting idea for specializing at varying levels.


                      I want more toolkits for Flexible Ghost magic. They can make Relics and Artifacts for instance but they are still mostly based off of their own powers anyways.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't see any problem that certain Gaunts, having withstood the ravages of Oblivion over time, should have better statistics. It's just a matter of coming up with some appropriate flavor text and guidelines. Perhaps its a result of a special kind of Harrowing that becomes possible if a wraith survives a thousand years or more, or a special ritual that a Ferryman can teach for a wraith has survived X number of Harrowings. Or a result of an encounter with special kind of Tempest zone that only manifests to wraiths after they have survived so long, been exposed to certain things, had certain experiences, or mastered certain traits (like eidolon) or a combination of them.

                        And you can always say that certain positions - like a commander of a Legion - somehow imbues that Wraith with being able to surpass normal limitations because of the authority bestowed upon them by Charon himself. Or as a result of how many souls they "command" or who obeys them. Then that might apply to certain Heretic cults as well.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Word I can see the more that Ghosts realize they aren't human the more they start going beyond human limits. This would be aided by losing their names, and taking titles. I can see the Legionnaires then promoting commanders with official titles to help kickstart this.

                          For Heretics becoming something like the Hierarch, of a Cult or getting a title like Matriarch or Patriarch of a cell kickstarts it. And maybe even actual ancestor cults in the mortal world, or tricking mortals to worship you period, like as a God or Angel or something, could be a quick way to hack into being something more then their past limits. Belief has a strong effect in the World of Darkness.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There are mentions in the books that Gaunts bolster themselves against Oblivion by the number of souls they control, but I don't think this ever gets developed. But you could probably create some kind of background, let's name it Soul Tithe, and assign dots for so many souls/wraiths they "control", and then give bonuses of some kind depending on the level.

                            I wouldn't use something like that for PCs, but it might make a nice guideline for STs running certain NPCs.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Interesting I didn't know this.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X