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Soulforging Non-Wraiths

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  • Soulforging Non-Wraiths

    What about other entities that end up in the underworld, where soul forging is concerned? I don't mean anyone coming in with flesh and blood, like some vampires, Garou, or Mages, but I'm thinking primarily of mummies on their death cycles, followed by anyone else who can enter the underworld in a disembodied manner but not be dead (I'm a little iffy, this is assuming that something like astral projection can get someone there).

  • #2
    Interesting question. I'm much, much more well-versed with Wraith than many other game lines, so someone else will have to speak to the RAW and fluff regarding other creatures, but just using my imagination... I'd say anything that comes in as a soul is fit for the forger's hammer and tongs.

    Anything that comes in as astrally projected? Here, I don't remember the WoD interpretation of what a projected soul is, whether it is a soul for all intents, or whether it's simply "the mind" walking around. From my folklore understanding, an astrally projected person has sent their actual soul out of their body, linked with a silver strand.

    I say, souls and astral projections are fair game.

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    • #3
      I don't think there's been a canonical consideration of it. However, I wouldn't allow it as an ST. I think soulforging is something that only happens to the truly dead.

      The Spell of Life which protects mummies and allows them to reincarnate would presumably protect the portion of their soul that traverses the Underworld, so any attempt to soulforge them fails. Technically, I think it is only a part of the mummy's soul, not the whole thing.

      Likewise, if the Hierarchy somehow gets a hold of someone's astral projection, any attempt at soulforging that only terminates the projection and sends it back to the body of the living. (An astral projection isn't even someone's "soul" - it is merely a projection of their mental energy, a subtle body. It isn't even made of plasm like everything in the Underworld.)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
        I don't think there's been a canonical consideration of it. However, I wouldn't allow it as an ST. I think soulforging is something that only happens to the truly dead.

        The Spell of Life which protects mummies and allows them to reincarnate would presumably protect the portion of their soul that traverses the Underworld, so any attempt to soulforge them fails. Technically, I think it is only a part of the mummy's soul, not the whole thing.

        Likewise, if the Hierarchy somehow gets a hold of someone's astral projection, any attempt at soulforging that only terminates the projection and sends it back to the body of the living. (An astral projection isn't even someone's "soul" - it is merely a projection of their mental energy, a subtle body. It isn't even made of plasm like everything in the Underworld.)
        There’s a type of ghost Fairies called https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Keremet That may be able to get soulforged, but it would be really hard.

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        • #5
          Can astral projections even make it into the Dark/Low Umbra rather than the Astral/high Umbra? I'd think not in general, though I suppose if one had a mishap crossing back inward from the Deep Umbra it might be possible. (I vaguely recall some reference to spectres rarely being able to access the other levels by such a method.)

          I do think anyone entering the Underworld via the Euthanatos Agama Sojourn rituals would be treated as a Wraith for most purposes, though I'd think Spirit magick could be used to defend against/counter Moliation.

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          • #6
            Astral Projections should be "native" to the High Umbra. But we know there are various "portals" that allows "spirits" to travel from one Umbra to another. So it's possible an experienced astral projector might visit the Underworld. It would not be the norm, but I think exceptional visits do happen.

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            • #7
              For all intent and purpose a Ba (the part of a Mummy that goes to the Underworld to gather energy so it can resurrect if the Mummy dies) is a Wraith. If they are generally stupid or just unlucky enough to get in a situation where they get on the radar and get slated for soul forging, that's it basically it. The Mummy along with the Ka that guards the body will wither away without the combination of the Ba as it is now soulforged. Now it makes me wonder on whether the Ba will even continue existing as an item with those aspects disintegrated as well.

              Non-Mummies who get into the Umbra though? Well for Vampires with Ash Path Necromancy (pre-V5) they can go into the Low Umbra (its how the Nagaraja and the Black Hand even made the new Enoch) and inhabit it for as long they please, but Vampires in the Low Umbra retain their physicality so they aren't malleable enough for Soulforging. They'd probably just either get A) knocked out, B) go into Torpor if brutal and lethal enough, or C) just get ash'd. Some Elders can use Auspex to enter the Low Umbra, but It'd go with how Black Fox says he'd do it- astral projected entities can't get Soulforged, only go back in their bodies if damaged enough.

              Euthanatos via Agama Sojourn or any Mages in general who can go into the Underwold can get Soulforged I'd say.


              Jade Kingdom Warrior

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              • #8
                Basically speaking, no. An astral projection is not made of the ectoplasm that a Wraith's Corpus is; therefore, it should not be able to be Soulforged. The same goes for beings who enter the Underworld physically, like Vampires using Necromancy and such, or even Agama Sojourn Mages. However, there might be a school that has learned how to Souforge non-plasm beings, including astral projections, spirits of the High and Middle Umbra, and anything else. It should be very rare and secretive, though.


                THWarted

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Toby Weingarten View Post
                  Basically speaking, no. An astral projection is not made of the ectoplasm that a Wraith's Corpus is; therefore, it should not be able to be Soulforged. The same goes for beings who enter the Underworld physically, like Vampires using Necromancy and such, or even Agama Sojourn Mages. However, there might be a school that has learned how to Souforge non-plasm beings, including astral projections, spirits of the High and Middle Umbra, and anything else. It should be very rare and secretive, though.
                  Oh what could the products of soul forging non-plasm be like? I’ll think they’ll have unique effects.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                    Oh what could the products of soul forging non-plasm be like? I’ll think they’ll have unique effects.
                    I imagine a wraith geting a hold of a spirit or a chimera might be able to make an artifact with fetish or cantrip-like abilities, but I don't think any wraith would even have the knowledge necessary to do that.

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                    • #11
                      Some certain Changlings mostly Unseelie could possible help with that, maybe the Seelie if the Chimira their forging are dangerous.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

                        I imagine a wraith geting a hold of a spirit or a chimera might be able to make an artifact with fetish or cantrip-like abilities, but I don't think any wraith would even have the knowledge necessary to do that.
                        I remember long ago people using the idea that some Plasmics are actually Spirits and Chimera that wandered into the Underworld, we know some chimera can through the Dark Paths of Balor and some spirits like Owls and Cats can wander into the Underworld and Spirits confuse them for plasmics, and we also have the idea I read an article on that beings like mighty Chimera die and become Malfeans, some never having been born could have been Neverborn long ago that swelled. And we know some wraiths, like ferrymen have made artifacts out of plasmic parts, like cloaks of monster skin. So it would be interest to introduce the idea of soulforging spirits, after all they have alloyed souls with Labyrinthe ores to make Stygian Steel.

                        I definitely like the idea that Fae sometimes forge souls into their treasures, because they naturally have the ability to forge impossible items of the dreaming into treasures. So hammering the soul of a duelist has never lost in life but that you have beaten in death into a sword tempered in the hearts blood of a dragon and forged in the fires of the sun would work as well as a Treasure made from only chimerical parts rather then corpus and chimera.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                          There’s a type of ghost Fairies called https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Keremet That may be able to get soulforged, but it would be really hard.
                          The Keremte seem to be actual Wraiths (meaning souls of the dead) that were somehow hijacked to the Dreaming (instead of manifesting in the Underworld through a Caul), and thus are treated mechanically different. So I supposed if they were ever to enter the Underworld, then they could be soulforged. But there might be some strange incidents or effects as a result of whatever strange things were done to them with the Dreaming.

                          I admit I find Keremets to be an interesting addition to Changeling, and the concept is found in many folklore about faeries so it's valid. However, the concept really needed to be developed more so STs and PCs have a better idea of the interaction between the Fae and the Underworld, and how they are able to essentially kidnapped and prevented from entering the Underworld and be mechanically treated differently. In essence, Keremets are probably "owned" by some fae in the same sense that other Wraiths own thralls.

                          I don't know if there has ever been a canonical interaction between the Dreaming and the Underworld in that inhabitants of one can visit the other. But obviously there are common interactions such as Wraiths with Phantasm interacting with the dreams of humans, and that sometimes that human dreamer may be interacted with a fae.

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                          • #14
                            Yeah, actually the Adhene are considered to be the Fae that sided with the Formarians. Hmm, shit which means the Kerment started as lost souls stolen by the formations to fight against the Tuthra de damm.

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for all of the feedback.

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